This article was originally published by mindbodygreen.com. Read the original article here.

This article was originally published by mindbodygreen.com. Read the original article here.

This article was originally published by mindbodygreen.com. Read the original article here.

Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.

This episode is brought to you by Four Sigmatic… the mushroom superfood company I’ve been raving about for years! They have many products that have become beloved staples in our home, but a few I love most are the Lion’s mane coffee packets for the morning, and their reishi elixir packets before bed to help with sleep. I’m also really enjoying their protein powder right now. They have a peanut butter flavor that’s delicious on its own blended with water and is packed with beneficial mushrooms. I often make a protein shake on busy mornings or after a workout and love the convenience and brain/energy boost. Check out my favorite products and all of their products by going to foursigmatic.com/wellnessmama. Use code wellnessmama to save 10%.

This episode is sponsored by Wellnesse… that’s Wellness with an “e” on the end… my all-natural personal care line. Our whitening toothpaste is a mineralizing blend of natural ingredients that supports oral health naturally. It’s based on the original recipe I developed over a decade ago and has been through almost a hundred iterations to create the best natural toothpaste available. Many types of toothpaste contain ingredients you might find in paint and that you certainly don’t want in your mouth, but ours is enamel friendly and oral biome friendly to keep your teeth and gums happy all day long! Check out the whitening toothpaste and all of our products, including our natural “hair food” haircare at Wellnesse.com.

Katie: Hello, and welcome to “The Wellness Mama Podcast”. I’m Katie, from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. That’s wellness within an E on the end. And this episode is on a really cool new concept called umbrella parenting for raising children with strong coping skills. I’m here with Dr. Jen Forristal, who is a naturopathic doctor and the founder of the Umbrella Project, which is a well-being curriculum that is currently running in hundreds of schools internationally. And it’s designed to help empower children and their families to have the tools for emotional well-being, which is especially important right now. I’ve heard from a lot of you whose children are struggling just as many adults are with the effects of the last couple of years.

And Dr. Jen has worked extensively with schools, researchers, organizations to develop these mental wellness strategies. And we really go deep on some practical ones today. She gives some really, really, really helpful parenting tips and ways that we can work with our kids at different ages, phrase things at different ages to help them with the phase of psychological development that they are in, while also maintaining open lines of communication and building tools for coping, strength and resilience throughout their lifetime. I learned a lot, made a lot of notes at wellnessmama.fm. You guys can check those out. And without further ado, let’s join Dr. Jen. Jen, welcome. Thanks for being here.

Dr. Jen: Thank you so much for having me, Katie. This is exciting.

Katie: Oh, I’m excited to chat with you. And from the research I’ve done on you, even more excited. I think to start broad and kind of narrow down, I have so many questions for you. But to start broad, just kind of can you define what the Umbrella Project is?

Dr. Jen: Yeah, I would love to. So, I guess early on in my practice, I started working with families and kids quite a bit and realized that there wasn’t a really easy way to talk to kids and families about stress and coping skills at all really. I had a lot of eyes glazing over in my private practice, as you kind of delve into those topics. So, I realized we needed a really centralized way to explain how all these pieces fit together. And that’s where the Umbrella Project and the umbrella effect was really born.

So, the umbrella effect is the effect of having an umbrella of coping skills to help you deal with life’s challenges. And when we look at all of the coping skills, that’s really what they do. They kind of weave together things like gratitude, and empathy, and cognitive flexibility, and growth mindset, and purpose, all the different coping skills, provided another little piece of an umbrella, is what I like to call it, that help you feel empowered in the face of life’s rainy days. So, you know, when stress comes along our path, we’re not at the mercy of that. We can really tap into these different coping skills. So it became a metaphor that really launched a curriculum for schools. So we have hundreds of schools that run a curriculum that teaches this concept to kids and then all of the different coping skills that we can rely on. It’s become a way of parenting. I call it umbrella parenting because I think we need to redefine a little bit the fact that it’s okay to protect your kids from challenges. Umbrella parenting is really about knowing when to step in with your umbrella of protection and when to let your kids struggle a little bit so eventually they build their own umbrella. So it’s become a whole movement around building your umbrella of coping skills.

Katie: And, okay, so from there, I’d love to know more about, like, it seems like parenting is at least perceived as more difficult these days, whether I’m guessing it might actually be because there are a lot more factors to navigate. But I do think, like, my experience with parenting seems different and maybe more difficult than how my grandmother, for instance, talked about parenting. So, is that actually the case? And if so, why is parenting more difficult these days?

Dr. Jen: You know, I think there’s a lot of factors that roll into that. But one of the biggest ones, and I know you’ve talked about this with some of your great guests that you’ve had in the past, but I think the role that technology is playing in our kids’ lives right now is making it so that we are parenting into a space that we didn’t really experience in the same way that our kids are experiencing it. So, you know, the role of having a smartphone very early and connecting with your peers through that device is very complex in its nature and the way that we develop, our brains develop. So I think, as parents, first and foremost, we really don’t fully understand the dynamics of the relationships that our kids have and the role that technology really plays in that. And then, secondly, I just think the world is changing more and more and more quickly, exponentially quickly. And one of the skills as parents that I think we really need to be teaching our kids is adaptability and how to really quickly pivot in the face of things changing, right? And I think when we were raised, it was more, like, you know, you’re gonna become a doctor, and there’s a clear path in front of you. And, as a parent, I know how to coach you along that path. And there’s kind of checkpoints along the way. And it was, I think, a little easier. Now, when we’re trying to teach our kids to be adaptable, I know a lot of adults and a lot of parents who don’t have that skill themselves and haven’t had to really build it through challenge. So, it’s hard to transfer skills you don’t have.

Katie: So walk us through some of these coping skills that make up the umbrella. What are some of the others? I love that. I have a feeling we’re gonna be very synergistic on some of these core skills, but what are some of the others?

Dr. Jen: Yeah, so one of the ones that come up or really came up, obviously, during this pandemic is cognitive flexibility, the ability to flex and adapt and, you know, do something different in the face of different circumstances. So that’s one. There’s quite a few, growth mindset, you know, the ability to see yourself as not a static being but somebody who’s always growing and changing. There’s empathy and, you know, our ability to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes. There’s a sense of purpose. I find that to be really a big one that helps to guide us. You know, there’s so many different ones, gratitude, helping us see what we have instead of what we don’t have. There’s just so many different skills.

We actually have an assessment tool for parents and kids that you can walk through all the different skills and get a score for yourself of, you know, what are your strongest Umbrella Skills and what are the ones that you could work more deeply on. For me, autonomy, that’s another one. You know, the ability to have a really clear say in the direction of our lives, that’s one that I really feel like growing up I didn’t get a chance to build. I had a mom who loved to remove adversity from our path. I think that was something… She always… Her favorite expression was, “I wish I could do the Vulcan mind-meld on you.” I don’t know if you know what that is. It’s from “Star Trek,” but it’s basically where you transfer all of your knowledge into someone else’s brain so they don’t have to have those experiences, they just get the wisdom. And I think, well, that was wonderful. On one side, it prevented me from feeling really confident in my own direction and decision-making without a lot of other opinions. But we’re all kind of unique based on our experiences. And if you’ve never really looked at your own coping skills and thought about what was strong or weak, it’s amazing what actually comes up. And it was really hard to lean into that for me. That decision-making, I had to purposely force myself outside my comfort zone so many times to try to build that skill. But…

Katie: I’m curious what some of the things were that were helpful for that because I resonate with that. My parents were also similar in that regard. And I think, as a parent, that’s the thing we all have to figure out how to navigate because we, of course, want to…the instinct is to protect our children from pain or hardship or anything, but also realizing, like, I could look back easily and say, “Oh, well, I am who I am because of, in part, these difficult things that I went through. I still don’t want my kids to have to go through difficult things.” So, what did that process look like for you, and what are some ways as parents we can foster a healthy relationship there?

Dr. Jen: Yeah, I mean, I think the first one is just knowing your child’s skills and really understanding what all the Umbrella Skills are and then having a look at your child and determining where they might need a little bit of an extra push or a challenge because what ends up happening if you imagine your umbrella with some holes in it, we tend to huddle under the parts that are strong, right? So the grittier get grittier, and the empathetic get more empathetic. And we tend to rely really heavily… My sister is incredibly autonomous. And she just realized so strongly on that skill, but in the absence of some of the other ones, our protection is incomplete. You really do need all of them.

So, I think the first step is really having a good individualized look at yourself or your child, recognizing what skills might be missing, and then parenting specifically into those skills. So I always… One of the things that I think most parents do that really is difficult for them and their children is trying to do everything. I mean, you could be doing a gratitude journal in the morning and then a play day for empathy, and then you could be asking them to do all this stuff autonomously. And then you could be, you know… There’s a million, million things you can do for well-being. But if you don’t focus on the holes, eventually they start to come back and influence your ability to cope.

So, I always tell parents to pick one thing. You know, look at your child’s umbrella of coping skills and… And we have a parenting course and an assessment tool that you can actually do this and get some scores for yourself and your child. And then just pick one thing to work on, one individual skill, until you see that start to come through in your child, and then you can switch because I think the overachieving parent is almost equally as damaging for kids as, you know, neglecting these things. And when you try to do it all, it tends to just backfire as a parent.

So really just diving down and picking that one thing that your child really needs. I have a 13-year-old and a 10-year-old and a 1-year-old. And you know right now, for my 13-year-old, it’s definitely self-compassion. That’s another one of the Umbrella Skills I think as kids cross into their teens, one of the lowest skills by far is self-compassion. And they tend to be very hard on themselves. It’s like adding insult to injury every time something goes wrong. So, for me, that’s the skill I’m working on with my daughter, and that might just be a simple reminder or a simple question asking her, you know, “What would you tell your best friend in this situation?” and, you know, having them reflect on how they would treat someone else and then trying to give themselves that same kindness, but there’s all sorts of different ways within the Umbrella Project that we talk about building each skill. So…

Katie: And that’s a helpful thing, and that’s something I’ve done in therapy actually, is the therapist will walk you through, like, finding a childhood thing and then what would you tell yourself at that age or, like, how would you look at it from the outside or, like, view that situation differently. But bringing it up about teenagers makes me wonder…I would guess there are some skills or they’d become more relevant at certain ages. I know every child is so different, obviously, but are there on average some that tend to be more important at different age groups?

Dr. Jen: For sure, yeah. Not every skill… And, I mean, I have a lot of parents who come to see me with toddlers. And, you know, there’s some skills that just aren’t built in the younger ages. But I would say mindfulness is a big one for younger kids. And, you know, I actually had listened to you say something in one of your podcasts about kids having a lot of natural skills. And one of the roles of parenting is just getting out of the way and letting those skills actually blossom, right? And I think mindfulness is one of those skills where kids exist very much in the moment. And we tend to be the ones taking them constantly out of the moment and trying to get them to think ahead. So, mindfulness is a great skill for young kids.

And self-compassion comes up a ton in the teen years as there’s a healthy lifestyle. I think that as our kids start to get some of their own freedom, they no longer wanna listen to what we tell them they should be doing and putting in their bodies. And so, focusing on keeping those healthy lifestyle pieces, that’s another great one for adolescence. Trying to maintain mindfulness in adolescence, so I think that’s another big one if we can just keep our teens a little bit more in the moment and a little bit less thinking about what’s coming or what has happened. That also tends to really influence their happiness and well-being.

Katie: Yeah, and I love that you said that because I’ve always had the feeling that kids come out of the box with so many amazing skills and that often we train out some of the really important ones. So on, like, the education side, I see that often with, like, creativity or being willing to ask hard questions and ask why a lot. Like, that’s super important and something I prioritize in employees and in entrepreneurs, and yet so much of our existing model trains those things out of them. And even just things like the ability to play and, like you said, to be present in the moment. We can actually learn so many lessons from young children when it comes to those things. But at least the existing systems tend to make those things more difficult to maintain. So I love that you’re bringing awareness to that.

I think the autonomy in the teenage years is also a big one. And I’d love to, like, talk a little bit more specifically about ways that we as parents can help foster that in a healthy way because I now I have a couple of teenagers. And that’s something I think about often is that the goal is for them to be autonomous adults. And I’ve always kind of pictured that, you know, by 13 or 14, they’re mostly there. They’re still living in my house. They still have a safety net, but they’re psychologically supposed to separate from the family at some point. They are supposed to be autonomous. And so how can I give them the space to do that and also the skills to do that in a safe and responsible way? So any specific tips for that age? Because I know a lot of people listening also have teenagers.

Dr. Jen: Yeah, oh, gosh, there’s so, so much about that. One of my favorite expressions that we use in my house all the time is self-regulate or be regulated. And I think self-regulation in teens is what they all want, right? They wanna be able to make their own choices and their own decisions. And so I really do think of myself as a broad safety net, where, like, within the parameters of what I can, I’ll please self-regulate, I don’t wanna tell you what to eat or where to go or when to do your homework. I don’t wanna be involved in that. But I am there, and I will step in and regulate if needed, right? I will be your prefrontal cortex when you are going to make bad decisions, right? That’s my role, is to just be observing and stepping in when I need to. And I tell my kids that. And I think they like that, right? They wanna self-regulate. There’s a goal there, and they know that I’m there just as a safety net. So even just that expression alone really gives a lot of information to teenagers, right? It tells them, “I want you to do this on your own. I don’t want to tell you what to do. I’m only there, you know, to help you out if I see you’re gonna make poor decisions that are gonna have a really lasting impact on your well-being.”

Katie: Yeah, that’s such a valuable way to say it.

Dr. Jen: Yeah, I don’t know if you’ve seen much about what’s been happening with the pandemic and what’s been happening with autonomy and that piece with teenagers because, really, that is such an important stage they’re supposed to be drifting and pulling away from parents, but because of having to really isolate with parents quite a bit in the last year or two, there’s been a huge toll on teen mental health, specifically in that grade 7 to 10 range where that’s really what they’re supposed to be doing, and now they’re stuck with us. In fact, my daughter has said, “I wish she would stop planning family things. Don’t you know, like, we have enough family time. I need to do something without you.” I was like, “Okay, I get it. Like, that makes perfect sense to me. I know I love you. And also, yes, please go do something without me.” So, I think recognizing that autonomy is a big piece of that developmental age and that something has happened in the last year or two to teens’ autonomy and that now most of them are very anxious about going back out into the world. Unlike young kids or some of the older kids that we see, specifically that teen demographic is not necessarily running back out open-armed into the world. They’re now very anxious about what it’s gonna look like to reengage. So I think autonomy is a great skill to start to focus on for our teens, for sure.

Katie: A phrase I like to use at my house is I reverse the spider man saying, so instead of, “With great power comes great responsibility,” I tell them “With great responsibility comes great power.” Like, I want you to be autonomous. And if you show me that you’re responsible, I have no reason to get in the way of that, and you have then great freedom and power. I think the other kind of flip side of this too is not taking it personally when teenagers start separating, which is, of course, easier said than done because, you know, we made them, and we grew them, and we’ve taken care of them since they were babies. And I always, like, logically knew that. And now I’m getting to experience the emotional side of, like, “Okay, my 15-year-old thinks that everything I say is wrong and is supposed to be separating and doesn’t wanna spend tons of time with the family and his friends are very important to him right now. And that has nothing to do with me being a bad mom. That has everything to do with the psychology of him being a teenager. And so how do I best support him in that?” versus, like, internalizing, like, “Oh, well, he doesn’t like me anymore. And I think that, like, it’s an important reframe for parents and those teenagers because it is a little tough, I feel, like, personally, when they start separating like that.

Dr. Jen: Oh, my gosh, it’s so hard. I remember…because my daughter’s 13, I remember last year listening to a podcast, and the podcast host was saying that you can’t avoid the teen separation. You know, you can’t avoid that piece. And I was thinking to myself, “I don’t know. I think my daughter’s pretty, pretty good. I think we’re gonna maintain this good relationship.” And then a year later, of course, I’m in the throes of, you know, that piece too. So, really, I love what you said about recognizing that it’s normal and not taking it personally, I think. And even having that explicit conversation with your kids, like, “It’s okay to want your own time and space. It’s okay that you don’t wanna hang out with me right now,” takes a lot of the guilt out of that for them and allows them a little freedom to just be who they are and not feel like they need to be taking care of your well-being too. So, yeah, I think that’s a great tip.

Katie: And then on the flip side of that is any tips for keeping communication open in a healthy way during that time? Because I know my parents were great about saying, like, you know, “You can talk to us about anything. And if there’s ever anything hard, like, we are here to listen. And, you know, you’ll never get in trouble for being open and honest.” And, frankly, as a teenager, I believed that exactly zero. Like, I was, like, “I’m not gonna talk to you when I do something you told me I’m not supposed to do. Like, there’s no way.” So I mean, the autonomy piece makes a lot of sense. And I think respecting that probably goes a long way toward keeping communication open, but also any tips for helping them actually feel and believe that they have a safety net when they need it?

Dr. Jen: Yeah, well, I think, like, two things come to mind with that. One is that as parents, and most parents are actually kind of poor at this, is that actions need to match words. So if you say, “It’s okay, you can come to me, and you’re not gonna get in trouble,” you do need to make sure that you follow through on that, right? And you can maybe do that by helping them reflect on how they might resolve the problem or whatever they’ve done instead of giving them a consequence. You might ask them what they think, you know, I said, “I wasn’t gonna get you in trouble for this. And I’m not, but I do think what you did is wrong or hurt someone or put you at risk. And what do you think a good way to make up for this is or to…?” You know, that’s a great way to get them involved but also have your actions match your words when it comes to that.

And then the other thing that I started with my kids when they were quite young actually is I told them, “I will always be your fact check.” I remember a couple of times growing up when I didn’t know what was real and what wasn’t. You know, you hear a lot on the playground. And sometimes it gets you into trouble when you don’t know what’s true and what’s not true. So I told them, “Anything you hear, you can always come and tell me, and I will tell you if it’s true or not.” And a funny story about that. So, with one of my kids… I won’t mention who in case they ever listen to this podcast which one. I said, “Okay, I’ll be your fact check, and you get to ask me anything.” And one of my children said, “Okay, I heard about this thing called sex.” And I was like, “Okay, what did you hear?” And they said, “I heard it could last anywhere from two minutes to a couple of hours.” I was like, “That is the first thing you want me to fact check?” I was like, “True.” Like, okay, well, you know what, at least I know what kind of information needs filtering back, but I feel like, from those experiences, I now have a very open dialogue with my kids where they really do bring a lot of sometimes shocking-for-me topics back that they’re hearing about or that their friends are talking about. And it really has served to keep the dialogue open and safe, I think, for them when I’m not there to provide advice. I’m just their backup fact check so that they can, you know, know what’s accurate and what’s not.

Katie: I love that tip. I’m making notes. That’s a great one. And then, yeah, they can trust you and know that you can help them research something. That’s amazing. You also have something called a well-being pop-up. Can you explain what that is and how it works?

Dr. Jen: Yeah. So, this is something actually we’ve been reflecting on at the Umbrella Project that we’re putting in place for schools because I think school’s really an education. It’s easy for well-being to become kind of in the background. And as much as schools know that without all of your coping skills, good luck doing any of the other subjects. I mean, they’re literally like your core muscles that stabilize you when you’re going to do anything else. Still, it always takes a backburner. So, we’ve started to develop conferences for schools, and we call them pop-ups. And they’re just one-day conferences that schools can run to really focus on wellbeing and to tell students, especially coming back this September, after the last year and a half, that their well-being is front of mind and priority. So we’re pretty excited about bringing this to schools.

This September, we’re focusing on the grade 7 to 10 cohort because it’s just so in need right now. Those kids are really struggling. And I actually would say if you have a grade 7 to 10 or even, you know, around that age student at home, check in with them and see how they’re doing because they’re also at an age of a child that’s not always gonna talk to you about what’s going on, right? So, you reaching out and asking them like, “How are you feeling?” You know, I remember a patient of mine saying that she thought her daughter was doing great and said, “Oh, my gosh, thank goodness we’re through that lockdown, and I’m so glad you did so well.” And she said, “I cried myself to sleep every night for the last couple of months.” And so just, you know, really checking in with them is important. And then we’re just really excited to be able to provide that for education. I know education’s one of your passions too. So, you know, starting to help schools really show students that this is the most important thing for them that their health and mental health and well-being is front, front of mind.

Katie: I love that. I’m gonna make sure all these things are linked in the show notes so people can find them. I think having tangible tools, especially as you mentioned right now, while we’re still navigating totally new circumstances and the way all ages of children are gonna cope with that, it’s so important.

Dr. Jen: Good advice there.

Katie: We were really fortunate in that we already homeschooled, and we were in a very tight-knit community. So our daily lives didn’t change at all other than, when activities shut down, I just hired the teachers directly. So now they come to our house to do gymnastics and all the different stuff. So, actually, for us, it was a really positive experience.

Dr. Jen: Awesome. That was another piece of research that came out during the pandemic actually, was the influence of losing extracurricular activities on academics for students because what they found is that all of the skills, like, having a sense of purpose and growth mindset, all the things that you’d get from extracurriculars, those coping skills transfer to academics. And when students don’t have something outside of school that they’re passionate about, their academics suffer significantly, too. I thought that was so interesting. And, yeah, I mean, I’m a research kind of geek. I love all the different pieces of research. But I thought that one was particularly interesting for impacts that, you know, losing extracurriculars or even having them has on your child’s academics.

Katie: Yeah, and, hopefully, that will all continue to get better and better as time goes on.

This episode is brought to you by Four Sigmatic… the mushroom superfood company I’ve been raving about for years! They have many products that have become beloved staples in our home, but a few I love most are the Lion’s mane coffee packets for the morning, and their reishi elixir packets before bed to help with sleep. I’m also really enjoying their protein powder right now. They have a peanut butter flavor that’s delicious on its own blended with water and is packed with beneficial mushrooms. I often make a protein shake on busy mornings or after a workout and love the convenience and brain/energy boost. Check out my favorite products and all of their products by going to foursigmatic.com/wellnessmama. Use code wellnessmama to save 10%.

This episode is sponsored by Wellnesse… that’s Wellness with an “e” on the end… my all-natural personal care line. Our whitening toothpaste is a mineralizing blend of natural ingredients that supports oral health naturally. It’s based on the original recipe I developed over a decade ago and has been through almost a hundred iterations to create the best natural toothpaste available. Many types of toothpaste contain ingredients you might find in paint and that you certainly don’t want in your mouth, but ours is enamel friendly and oral biome friendly to keep your teeth and gums happy all day long! Check out the whitening toothpaste and all of our products, including our natural “hair food” haircare at Wellnesse.com.

And as we talked about, look, before we move on from the teenage years, I mentioned, in therapy, that’s the thing that often comes up, is, like, they’ll have you process something earlier in life and then ask what you would say to yourself at that age. So I’m curious, what would you tell your teenage self?

Dr. Jen: Oh, I think, like, one of the biggest things I think that I wish I knew back then is that it’s important to be kinder to yourself. I think a big piece of why teens are even so hard on each other is because they’re so hard on themselves, right, and tends to become just a hierarchy of who feels better than who, and teens tend to do that by putting others below them instead of trying to elevate themselves. I think a little bit of self-kindness would have gone such a long way for me as a teenager, for sure. So I think that’s one of the things that really stands out to me that I wish I knew when I was younger.

And then that everyone struggles. I remember I had a lot of, you know, internal family struggles going on when I was growing up. And after I became an adult, I realized that a lot of my other friends did too. And we just didn’t really talk about it, right? We kind of kept that a secret within each of our families. And I wish I knew then that they were struggling in the same way that I was or recognize that that wasn’t something I was doing alone, and that sense of common humanity is such a well-being protector and one that we talk about all the time with the Umbrella Project and just the idea that life rains for everyone and that, you know, that rain is even important for developing coping skills. I mean, coping skills are skills, right? They need practice, and you need that adversity to really develop any of the skills to be very strong, but I wish I knew more that other people were struggling too back then.

Katie: And, like, in so many areas of life, when you’re able to talk about it, it often removes some of the struggle. And I love that you used the analogy of rain because I think that’s a perfect way to think of this is often, at least speaking personally, like, we have an emotion like sadness. And then we attach a connotation to it, like sadness is bad. But, like, I think I’ve gotten notes from you. Like, these things are all inevitable. We will inevitably have rainy days. We will inevitably go through things that are difficult by some metric, but we have the choice of interpreting them as bad or painful. Yeah, we have the ability to frame our own experience within that and in the context of this conversation to help our kids learn that from a very early age. And so rather than… I feel like that’s one thing I’ve learned the last few years, is any emotion we resist actually tends to grow. So, trying to, like, help my kids learn to feel an emotion and not resist it or judge it as bad necessarily, but be able to feel it, process it, learn from it, and when it’s time, also let go of it.

I feel like that question brings me to the earlier childhood time because I feel like younger kids tend to have bigger emotional spikes or at least more likely just their output is more…there’s more volume to their output. Probably older kids still have the intensity of experience but have learned to kind of shut down the response of it. So, what are some ways that we can help kids navigate not shutting down their emotions, not defining, for instance, feeling anger as a bad thing or feeling sadness as a bad thing but also processing it in a way that is, you know, like, socially acceptable in target?

Dr. Jen: Yeah. You know, one conversation that I… I love conversations with kids. I feel like our lives are a dialogue, and a lot comes from conversation, even maybe not in the moment but when you reflect back later. So, one conversation I love to have with kids and I recommend every parent has is just asking them, like, “What makes you angry? What makes you jealous? What makes you sad?” Go through, you know, different times, different feelings, and then share some things that make you feel like that, too. I remember a great conversation I had with my daughter about, you know, “Do you ever feel jealous? What makes you feel like that?” And then her asking me the same question and us sharing some things that make us feel that way. Because when they can see that you’re with them at their level, right, that jealousy is not a bad emotion, it’s a normal emotion, and that it’s what you do with it, right? But first and foremost, in young kids, it needs to be okay to feel all the feelings.

And, you know, while we might say it’s okay to feel sad or angry, sometimes there’s other ones like jealous or, right, we tend to say that’s not okay, right? You shouldn’t be jealous. Look how much you have or whatever the thing is, and instead of just really having a conversation about, “That’s when I feel that way.” And that’s it, right? It doesn’t have to be a lesson, nothing. It doesn’t have to be a moral, just we’re all in this together. We all feel everything. So I like that for a start with kids. And then one of the other questions that I really like with kids is just asking them regularly, “What does it mean?” Like, you know, if they’re upset, if they bring home a bad mark from school, for example, or if they don’t do well on something, or if a friend’s unkind to them, ask them, “What does it mean to you when that happens? What do you think it means when a friend is unkind to you?” And then you can start to hear their narrative, right? Because we don’t need to jump in and fix or change feelings or experiences.

But it is really important as parents that we hear what our kids’ narrative is becoming because I love the expression, “You aren’t what happens to you in life. You’re the story you tell yourself about what those things mean,” right? We are only… We are meaning makers. And so, if to your child when a friend is mean, it means, you know, maybe they’re having a bad day or maybe everybody feels mean sometimes, and, you know, maybe tomorrow, they’ll be feeling better. Maybe that’s not a narrative we need to really intervene with, or, you know, it’s okay to feel sad when that happens.

But if the meaning that they’re making from that is, like, “Maybe I’m not a good person. Maybe people don’t like me. Maybe…” you know, then those are the narratives that I think we need to dig deeper into with our kids and, you know, acknowledge their sadness and also help them at the other side of that, try to think of some other meanings that they could take from that. So, as your child grows and develops, if you can hear their narrative, I think that’s probably the most powerful thing you can do as a parent, is try to really hear the meaning that your child is taking and, you know, help them shift it into something that is self-serving and powerful for them.

Katie: I really like that tip of asking them, “What does that mean?” Because that does shift it as well. And I think it also helps protect against that parental instinct to try to fix it for them, like we talked about in the very beginning, and/or projecting any of our own discomfort with them feeling that emotion. I think they should be allowed to feel it. And also not defining it for them. I feel like that’s an easy loop to fall into as a parent, is to ask them if they’re feeling sadness or, “Oh, are you feeling…?” But instead of doing that, giving them the space to say what they’re feeling and what it means. And I’ve definitely made a note to use that with my younger ones.

Dr. Jen: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a great question. I’ve learned so much about my kids. And I would say… And, I mean, I do this for a living, and I’d say I’m probably 50/50 with guessing what the meaning, you know, from looking at my kids what I think they’re taking from an experience and what they actually are.

Katie: Yeah, and I wonder if… Because if we project wrong and think like, “Oh, are you feeling sad?” and they’re not, then it might be harder for them to speak up and say they’re not, and/or they may internalize, “Oh, I’m supposed to feel sad now.”

Dr. Jen: It’s confusing when your parents try to talk you out of your feelings, right? Because it does actually… The question is, okay, are my feelings wrong, or do they just not get me or…right? And that comes back to those teen years, is kids will talk…

Katie: Am I weird or…?

Dr. Jen: Yeah, kids will talk to you if they think you understand what they’re going through. And if you don’t, they’ll go to their peers. And, I mean, I certainly… I love my friends or my kids’ friends, but I don’t know that I want them to be, you know, the person that my kids are always going to for answers when they need something. So, yeah, keeping that dialogue or that openness with not presuming you know what their experience is is really helpful.

Katie: So, you mentioned, of course, your book, and you mentioned courses as well. I’m gonna make sure I put links to all of these in the show notes. But where can people start really delving into this and springboard to use this in their own families?

Dr. Jen: Yeah. So our website is probably the best spot to find a lot of centralized information. It’s umbrellaproject.co. And there we have a blog with all sorts of parenting tips that are skill-based. We have links to our parenting courses. We have links to the curriculum and to our pop-up in the different programs that we have for education. So we have all sorts of information there to get you started. Our Parenting 101 course is a great spot if you want to assess your child’s coping skills and your own and get a really good foundation in what the parenting dos and don’ts are depending on your individual child. Something we’ve really tried to focus on is, like, if you could just do two or three things for this type of child or this skill that you’re trying to build, what would those be? So that’s a great starting point for parents, for sure.

Katie: I love that. Another question I love to ask for the end of interviews is if there’s a book or a number of books that have had a profound impact on your life, and if so, what they are and why?

Dr. Jen: Gosh, there’s… I am such a reader. I love reading. So that’s a really hard question. But one that stands out to me is “Piece Is Every Step.” Have you read that by Thich Nhat Hanh? It’s a mindfulness book. And I would say, for me, mindfulness was probably the skill that I put into my umbrella first as a grownup that changed everything about the rest of my life because mindfulness is really the skill that helps you pay attention to how you’re feeling in the moment and why. So, when I started to build that skill, it really allowed me to see all the other gaps that existed in my coping skills and where I needed to focus my attention. And that book was really the starting point of all of it. This is a great read if you wanna delve into mindfulness a little bit.

Katie: I’m definitely gonna order that now. That sounds like a great one. It’s a new recommendation here. And also that’s been a recurring theme for me recently, is the importance of mindfulness and meditation. It’s one of those things I’ve certainly seen the research on it, I’m now learning the application of after probably many years of putting it off. So, I love that you brought that up. I’ll make sure that’s linked, as well. Any parting advice that you wanna leave, especially with parents that are listening today?

Dr. Jen: Let’s see. I kind of think of what we haven’t talked about yet. I think embracing imperfection in yourself and your kids. You know, imperfection is really what connects us as humans. When you think about that person you perceive as perfect or who has it all together, there often isn’t a lot of connection in that. Where people really connect is in that sense of common humanity in our imperfections. But, for some reason, we all think we need to be perfect parents and we need to have perfect kids. And if you can really embrace mistakes and imperfection as chances to grow and connect and be vulnerable with each other, I think that is my advice to all parents, just it’s okay to be just who you are, you know, a person slowly continuing to grow and change, and it’s okay for your kids to be that too. It’s what makes us…it’s what brings us together.

Katie: I love that. I think that’s a perfect place to wrap up. I’m excited to read your book. I’m excited to keep learning from you. And thank you for your time today. This was awesome.

Dr. Jen: Thank you so much for having me, Katie. This was great.

Katie: And thanks as always to you guys for listening and sharing your most valuable resources with us, your time, and energy, and attention. We’re both so grateful that you did, and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the “Wellness Mama Podcast.”

If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.

This article was originally published by wellnessmama.com. Read the original article here.

This article was originally published by mindbodygreen.com. Read the original article here.

This article was originally published by mindbodygreen.com. Read the original article here.

This article was originally published by mindbodygreen.com. Read the original article here.

Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.

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Katie: Hello, and welcome to the Wellness Mama Podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com, it’s my new personal care line, Wellnesse with an “e” on the end. And this episode is all about curating a strong mindset in ourselves and in our kids. And I’m here with Mike Bayer, who is a two-times New York Times Bestselling author. He is the founder and CEO of the leading mental health treatment center in Los Angeles and considered one of the top life coaches in the world today.

He’s worked with A-list celebrities, and high performers, and everyday people, and he is an advisor to the “Dr. Phil Show” among other places. His work centers around helping people become their best selves. And we go deep on this today, things like breaking through anxiety, stress, and fear, how to make authentic decisions, and how we can curate a strong mindset in our children from the get-go. So, without further ado, let’s join Mike. Mike, welcome. Thanks for being here.

Mike: Thanks, Katie.

Katie: Well, you come highly recommended by someone I love dearly. And I’m so excited to chat with you today, especially for all the moms listening because I think so many parts of your message really resonate and are especially applicable to women and to moms especially. And from what of your work that I’ve read, I think one area that might be a great starting point is the idea of handling decisions because you have some strategies for this and I think they’re really applicable. And I think of all the population, I think moms have to handle the most decisions on a day-to-day basis. Certainly, I get bombarded with questions and decisions all day long. So I thought this would be a great jumping-in point on some strategies that you have on managing decision-making better.

Mike: Yeah, and you’re right. I mean, especially when you have stress, or pressure, or lack of sleep, decisions really get affected. I mean, we make over 30,000 decisions a day. And some decisions matter, some don’t matter. Sometimes we get really stuck on the things that are irrelevant, but we end up in this cycle or this loop. Sometimes it’s because our parents ingrained in us, this is important. And then other times we’re able to, kind of, you know, just not feel like it’s a big deal. So, it really depends. From my experience, a helpful tool is understanding, what right now is causing the most stress? And sometimes it’s really helpful to start there because what I’ve created is kind of like, a simple action plan for someone who really wants to shift an area of their life, feel a little bit different.

But usually, it’s good to kind of go, “Well, what’s most stressful?” And so once we identify what’s most stressful, we wanna go, “Well, why is it stressful?” You know, like, what is it about the situation that is causing fear, or panic, or worry? And it’s really helpful to understand, like, is it that bad? Is this situation that bad? And, you know, Katie, and having six kids, and being a mom, and the stressors that come with that, I mean, depending on the day and the mood and the time and the energy, you’re gonna make all sorts of different types of decisions. And sometimes decisions aren’t as big as we make them.

Katie: Yeah, and I love your idea of reserving the decision-making ability and the focus for the ones that do require more thought. I think, like, with moms, I call it death by 1,000 paper cuts. We get bombarded with the micro-decisions all day long. So some of those things that’s as simple as figure out natural strategies and that you don’t get asked the same questions and have to make the same decisions over and over. Like, if your kids are always asking you to get them water, put the water cups down low so they can reach them so they’re not asking you to get them water or give them the ability to answer their own questions whenever possible so that you’re not constantly the source of their decisions. But I think you’re right, when it comes to making the bigger ones, it’s really important to reserve that mental bandwidth and to be able to give those decisions the attention they deserve. And I think that’s, kind of, part of the impetus for your book, right? Your book is called “One Decision,” I believe. Can you talk about what that is and, kind of, using that as a starting point?

Mike: Sure. So, I find it really helpful assessment to figure out what decision needs to be made right now is an exercise I created called the SPHERES. And SPHERES is an acronym. I love an acronym because they’re super pithy and easy to apply. And so you can do the SPHERES with me right now if you’d like. You know, and we can do it with you and, Katie, we can take a look at it. So, the first S, and what we’re looking at is you’re gonna rate it, just from a 1 to 10. You’re gonna rate how in terms of you feeling, like, “Wow, I’m really content or at peace.” It doesn’t mean you have to have that joy. You know, like, sometimes we believe we have to this extreme joy all the time, which just isn’t reality. So, your social life from a 1 to 10 you wanna rate with how content you are with it. So you may not have a lot of friends but you may also not want a lot of friends. And so it may be an 8, it may be a 9, or you may feel like you’re lacking that community, that camaraderie, you know, other parents that you really love to be around. Maybe you, kind of, feel like you’re on an island. Maybe you don’t wanna be on an island. So first you rate the S.

Next is personal. The P is for personal. You rate it from a 1 to 10, and that’s your mental health. It’s how are you taking care of yourself? How is your anxiety? How is your depression? How are you looking at the world? The next is education or evolving. How much are you evolving? How much are you shifting and changing? And, you know, when we’re young, as we see with kids, they’re taught so much, they’re evolving so quickly, and then we, kind of, often stop evolving. We stop reading books. We stop getting interested or curious. we tend to get stuck with life. Rate that from a 1 to 10.

R is for relationships. Relationships mean, with your kids, with your spouse, with your ex, with your parents, whatever relationships are really impactful in your own life. The E, the next E is earnings. So, from a 1 to 10, how happy are you with how much money you have in the account. And S is for spiritual development. How spiritual do you feel? How much faith you have in your own life? Whatever that means for you. So, that’s kind of a simple assessment to start off to go, “All right, well, what areas are, kind of, lacking?” So, Katie, for you what came up for you?

Katie: I’m making notes over here if anybody sees me looking off-screen. I feel like I’m learning to prioritize the personal side better. That was an area that was lacking for me for a really long time. And I came from a pattern of, kind of, caretaking everybody else at the expense of my own mental health. So that’s what I’ve been actively working on. I feel like my strengths are probably in the education and evolving side because that’s so in line with my work. And I think the ones that are probably the lowest that I’m working on the most right now are relationships and the spiritual development side.

Mike: Got it. And this is good. So those are the two areas. And which of those are you most motivated to change?

Katie: Probably the relationship side. I think, like, that’s such a key of so many…it ripples into every other area.

Mike: Okay. And I don’t know if you wanna tell me, is there a specific relationship that you’re wanting to improve?

Katie: Actually there’s a couple. I don’t wanna give away too many details that aren’t mine to share. But there’s a couple that are really important. Yeah.

Mike: Okay. And in those relationships, would you say they’re causing more stress or you’re wanting more love, or you’re wanting more cash? Like, what would you wish it to be that would make it a little better for you?

Katie: In both cases, they’re sources of stress right now. And so, yeah, figuring out how to mitigate that.

Mike: Got it. And so, in terms of what it is that’s causing stress, this is, like, an assessment where I would go, “All right, we’ve dug in and we’ve gone, okay, here’s the one area…” Because it’s very easy sometimes to get caught up in those other areas that are really working, and it’s not fun to take a step back and look at that area because there’s usually some pain in it. There’s frustration. There’s like, I’ve tried everything, right? So it’s like, we don’t even wanna dig back into that. However, my belief and what I found is we’re always just one decision away from bettering, or changing, or shifting any area of our own lives. And so, if that one area with relationships is causing the most stress, I would say, “Well, what is one decision that you could make today that would give you more peace in that arena?” Do you have any rough, like, vague answer?

Katie: Yeah, I think in one particular, it’s gonna be related to boundaries. So it’d probably be a big key…And also, as you’re saying this, I’m making notes over here, and it seems like this is probably an evolving process as well because you’ve got almost like six balls in the air. And it seems like when you get a couple figured out or improved, that might actually, like, cause some friction in a couple of the others until you adjust to that throughout, kind of, all these areas.

Mike: Yeah, like, you’re right, one area can really trickle down like a plumbing system and it can cause some really bad water coming out of everything, right? Because when one area affects us, sometimes there’s spiritual development. Sometimes I find for people, it’s really good to start spiritually and to go, “What is a practice that works for me, that keeps me balanced, keeps me in faith?” Because when we have faith, and I don’t mean religious faith, when we have belief that it could get better, that really helps with anxiety, stress, and fear. So, for some people I work with, they’re like, “All right, I’m going to do a five-minute breathing exercise and a gratitude list. And at night, I’m gonna review my day. So, for everyone, it’s different. But we’re all, like I said, one decision away from improving one area of our life. And I find that when we improve that one area and it’s the right area, everything, kind of, gets better and more at peace. And granted, life’s whack-a-mole, right? Like, we’re always hitting a new area but it’s either grow or go. You know, and sometimes it’s like, it is what it is and we just have to make a decision to do what’s best for us, which ultimately ends up being best for the kids.

Katie: And you mentioned anxiety, stress, and fear. And it seems like these are all, kind of, at record highs as after everything of the past year-and-a-half. And certainly, these are things that I hear moms struggle with quite a bit, especially anxiety is a recurring theme from a lot of my readers and listeners. And I think from…I’ve read a lot of your work, you have a really valuable approach to these as well because I think often it’s easy to get in this mentality of, like, these things are outside of my control, and now there’s these forces and it feels very overwhelming. And so for people who are maybe in some of those states of mind, what are some tangible things we can do if we’re in anxiety, stress, and fear to move beyond it?

Mike: Well, I mean, it’s kind of like what I said where let’s figure out what is…what’s the heartbeat of this anxiety, stress, and fear? You know, like, really, sometimes we can get so overwhelmed that we don’t even know…you know, like, there’s a metaphor, you know, you step on a dry leaf, it cracks. It gets a little moisture and water, and then it bends. Right? And sometimes we get to the point where we’re cracking over things where we’re like, “Oh, my God, why did I say that? That’s not even that big of a deal.” So it’s figuring out what is that stress and then what is that support? Community, as you know, is so key to life. You know, it provides wisdom. It allows us to help others. You know, it allows us to mentor. It allows us to get mentored.

Even this podcast, it’s like, for anyone, it’s getting into that habit of, like, finding wise counsel and also giving back. I find that’s a really good solution for anxiety. Whether it’s going through a divorce, whether it’s what kind of school your kids should go to, because I’ve worked with a lot of parents and that seems to be a huge stressor is like, am I choosing the right school? Is this the right school? Now, I mean, things have changed so much, like you said, in the last year or so. But I think identifying the problem is always the first step to navigating on our roadmap where we’re going. And I find working with a lot of people for the past 18 years, they don’t actually know the problem. They think it is what their brain keeps cycling. But unless you bring someone else into the conversation, who’s wise and can provide guidance and solution, we can end up just in that same cycle.

Katie: That’s really interesting, that idea that they…So, are they focusing on a different problem or they think the problem is something different than what it actually is and that’s, kind of, causing a fixation, rather than them being able to figure out what the root is?

Mike: Yeah, like, so someone could be…I talked to someone recently, or this was last year when I’m thinking of this particular family, they were very stressed about, am I choosing the right school for my kid? It was like…It was very…She was even crying over it. She was so stressed out, am I choosing the right school for the safety of her own child? Well, if you peel it back, what she’s really stressed about is making the wrong decisions for her kid. It’s not even about the school. And then when we take a step back and we go, “Well, what other areas are you afraid of making the wrong decision for your kid?” it provides more clarity to the whole thing. Otherwise, the school is just like the external stress but the real fear is about I’m afraid of making wrong decisions for my kid. Got it.

Let’s look at all the right decisions you’ve made. Have you made more right decisions or have you made more wrong decisions? And because we’re all stuck in our head throughout the day, I find for a lot of parents, they don’t take the time to go, like, “God, I have made so many great decisions for my kids.” They don’t do that. Instead, they’re just like on to the next, on to the next, on to the next. And I think that that’s what I mean when I say people are focused on like, this is the stress but it’s deeper.

Katie: That’s a good point, really dialing it down to the root. And you also talk about shifting out of a victim mentality. And I think this is a really important key of…Like, some of my greatest teachers have been books but people like Viktor Frankl, who you added to him as an example,, if he can choose, that is such an extreme situation, like, we all have the ability to choose the things which are in our control, which are our own responses and how we react in any given scenario. But I think this one really can be tough for a lot of people, especially for anyone listening with a health problem because I certainly found myself going to that place when I was in the worst of autoimmune disease of that, kind of, like, why is this happening to me? It’s not gonna get better. And that’s a really difficult mindset to be in. And I feel like it can be a difficult mindset to break as well. So, what are your strategies for helping people who are there?

Mike: And have you talked to your audience before about Viktor Frankl and what he did? And…

Katie: A little bit. I’ve written about him some, just as a book that I love. And I’ve also, kind of, delved into stoicism, and Marcus Aurelius, and some of those works, but I mean, he’s a hero of mine. I love him. So we can definitely talk about him.

Mike: Yeah, he’s amazing. Yeah, and Nelson Mandela, you know, like, you look at these extremes…I’m friends with Sabrina, who’s Trayvon Martin’s mom, right? Like, I got lunch with her in Miami. I mean, I can imagine what it’s like to have your kid taken…you know, their life taken, put in the public eye. Like, she’s such a resilient woman. And, like, I think it’s very easy…The easy way in life is to be a victim. It’s so easy. It’s so easy because it doesn’t require any insight into self. But the problem is, you create a lot of suffering for yourself by being a victim. There is really no benefit to staying in this idea of victim. Like, I grew up in a family where there was this, like, blame and shame. And, you know, as adults, we often have to work on ourselves and relieve ourselves of, kind of, those things that we’ve carried for so long. But, you know, you can’t be a victim and empowered at the same time. And if you think you can be, from my experience, it’s wonky. It is off-balance because it’s really taking responsibility for our own lives. It’s looking at what do we have the power to change? And it’s also putting life into perspective.

You know, like, I’ve been to Kurdistan, Iraq several times, working with Yazidi women whose husbands have been beheaded in front of them and their daughters are sex trafficked and their sons were forced to join ISIS. And the moms are two hours removed from their homes and literally, like, they’re, like, our parents and they’re living in, like, huts practically, like, these little refugee camps. And they’re, like, the nicest people. It’s not at all what you see in the media, right? Like, they look like you and I. And to me, I owe it…those are victims. Like, of anyone that I’ve met, those are the people I’m like, “Oh, my Lord, that is horrific.” And it’s interesting how it’s so tough sometimes for people to get out of that mindset. But God, if someone is listening who feels like they’re a victim and wants to change because it’s toxic and you actually don’t feel good when you’re a victim. Man, it’s a game-changer. So, what is something that you see with a lot of parents in terms of being, kind of, a victim?

Katie: I think there’s a lot that goes…Well, I think there’s a lot of building pressure on parents related to the academic side, like you mentioned, with getting kids in the right school or the inability to make sure that they have the perfect future. And I think inadvertently, this has led to parents doing more for their kids and letting their kids do less on their own, which ironically, seems to actually be hurting our kids in the long run because they need these foundational skills. Early on, they need to be self-sufficient. They need to learn how to work through problems. But instead, I think parents are so worried about their kids’ futures, that they’re problem-solving for them and short-circuiting that cycle of them learning the life skills themselves. It seems to be a recurring pattern for sure.

Mike: So you’re saying, in terms of being a victim…the parents are a victim in the sense that they end up doing what their kid needs to do, but then they, like, act like they shouldn’t or, like, what…?

Katie: Like, doing it for them. Like, for instance, when I was a kid, I had an understanding if I messed up at school, I was gonna get in trouble at school and I was gonna get in trouble when I got home, and my parents were gonna back the teacher. And if I backtalk to any of those scenarios, it was gonna be worse. And now, I hear from so many teachers who have parents coming in and fighting their kids’ battles or being like, “My kid needs a different grade on this test.” And so kids aren’t learning, I’m responsible for my own actions, which seems to be what you were talking about is the root of this is in the responsibility in choosing radical responsibility, we find freedom. And so it seems like we’re keeping our kids from being able to learn that when we do that for them.

Mike: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And my sister is a teacher and she’s told me some of the stories of parents who come in where she’s trying to do her job. And, you know, it’s interesting. It’s interesting how things evolve and change. It’s almost like our parents’ generation were tougher than our generation and we’re tougher than the generation now, right? It’s like, where is this gonna end up in 30 years, right?

Katie: Yeah. And I think it goes back to the idea you’re talking about too of, like, responsibility. And I think maybe that’s part of what’s gotten lost a little bit in these generations. And the extreme example, that being people like Viktor Frankl who faced…or these women that you mentioned, like, faced things we can’t even fathom, which put our problems in perspective. But for me, for a long time, for instance, one of my internal ones that I felt like a victim in was I had a lot of trouble losing weight and I’ve recently lost almost 100 pounds. But before that point, I had this mental script of, like, “I can’t lose weight. Why is this so hard?” And I had mental excuses I could hide behind of, like, “Oh, well, I had sexual trauma and I have Hashimoto’s. I’ve had thyroid disease. I’ve had six kids. There’s all these reasons.” And when I was able to shift my mindset to being totally responsible and in control of that myself, and also being willing to face the inner work of working through trauma, I was able to shift that and the weight loss part was almost effortless once I fixed the inner mental side.

Mike: Right. Right.

Katie: Because I was no longer trying to, like, punish and fight my body anymore.

Mike: Well, congratulations. That’s amazing. I forgot to add the H to SPHERES. And just I ended up spelling out speres, but it’s S-P-H-E-R-E-S. It’s the first time I’ve done that in two-and-a-half years, but I’m glad you brought up health because, yeah, again, like, you know, making a decision towards anything has a huge effect on everything in life. And really, how do we take responsibility for our own lives? How do we not blame our past? How do we not blame our kids? How do we not blame the teachers? And how do we just realize that we’re capable of really thriving, and living, and marching to our own beat? You know, the cool thing I see right now with parents is there’s a lot more creativity with parents in terms of, like, education, learning, teaching, that seems like it’s a lot more flexible than when we went to school.

Katie: That’s true. And I think maybe something else that could be helpful in this area, potentially, you talk about avatars. And I’ve mainly heard of avatars from, like, as a writer, knowing who I’m writing to and having a very clear idea of my reader, basically, as a person that personifies in my head so that I can write clearly and, hopefully, reach who I’m trying to reach. But you have a really cool way of using avatars. And I feel like this maybe is an area where it could be helpful as well with changing our mentality a bit. Can you explain what that is?

Mike: Yeah, it’s so helpful for kids. And I’ve gone into schools and done this. It’s called the best self exercise. And essentially, it’s identifying who our best self is. It’s writing out the characteristics of who we are when we feel authentic. And then it’s creating an avatar. So, like, mine’s a wizard named Merlin. I have a wizard tattooed all the way down my arm. I have wizards all over my house. People give me wizards as gifts. But it’s really about bringing your best self into any situation where you feel uneasy, uncomfortable. And the great thing is everyone creates their own version of their best self. And for everyone, it’s different. And the kids can do it. I’ve had so many families do this exercise. And then you create your anti-self, which is the part of you that’s getting in your own way right now, the part of you that just feels inauthentic, the part of you that feels like, you know, gosh, it’s just I didn’t say that the way I wanted to say it or this just doesn’t feel like me. And you do the same thing, you create what I call your anti-self. Mine’s a male witch named Angelos because I think witches have no…male witches. Like, I don’t know, I don’t remember a lot of male witches growing up. So I feel like they just complain about everything and they’re insufferable.

But it’s really you add humor to self-help, it makes it a lot more attractive to kids because, like, even if a parent is really upset and their kid sees them and the parent’s, like, so angry, if the kid…Like, I had in the book, Road Rage Regina, which was this mom, whenever she got behind the wheel, she was just not a great…she was like an angry person on the road and it affected everyone in the car. And essentially, if the kids can’t go, “Mom, you’re so angry,” but if they go, “Mom, your Road Rage Regina came out,” it’s kind of funny. And then what it does is it allows us to make a conversation happen around self-help that’s fun, that’s created, that’s authentic. And it’s really powerful to see your kids go through the exercise because I’ve never had a parent guess all the characteristics and what was created out of a kid’s anti-self.

Katie: That’s really interesting. So this is an exercise even…what age do you have kids go through this?

Mike: Well, the school I went to, I think they were 8 or 9. So as young as 8 or 9-year-olds, and you get out some markers or crayons or paint or whatever it is, and you really just help them understand, like, who are you? And often the younger they are, the more they’re thinking of, like, superheroes or, like, something they’ve seen in cartoons are usually the inspirations. When you get to their anti-self, what that does is it helps you paint a picture, it helps them paint for you a picture of what’s going on internally that they can’t articulate into words. And so, I’ve had so many children share with their parents their anti-self. Like, I had one girl when I went to a school, I think she was like 8 or 9 years old, and the dad thought she was the most upbeat, you know, fun, happy child. And she said that her anti-self would not finish dinner, and run to the bathroom, and sit in there for an hour. And who knows what was going on in the bathroom too, right? The dad had no idea whatsoever. And so what it did was gave him some information for him and his wife to realize that that behavior is what’s starting to happen in the household. And then otherwise, they would have had no idea.

Katie: That’s really fascinating. And I think, as parents, I think I really believe that one of the best things, most valuable gifts we can give our kids is a strong mindset and that foundation mentally, much more so than even, to your early point, the best education that we worry so much often about them having every academic opportunity. But when we look at the long-term data, I’m sure you see this in all the high achievers you work with, a continual thing that separates people is that mindset component and things like growth mindset versus fixed mindset, but also, like, being able to break free of that victim mentality and believe that you have the power to affect the outcome. So, as a parent, I’m really curious, are there more strategies like that, that we can implement early on with our kids to really give them the gift of that mindset early?

Mike: Well, I’ll send you over…I did this exercise on Dr. Phil when I went into a school. So I’ll send that over to you, which it’s…If I was a parent, I would be doing this with my kid, absolutely without a doubt. It’s off my first book “Best Self,” and it literally will tell you what is going on in your child’s brain that they’re not articulating to you. It’s also gonna give you signs and symptoms of addiction, depression, anxiety disorders. You know, one of the businesses I’ve owned for 15 years is a treatment center. So I’ve dealt with thousands of families and what happens when somebody ends up having to go to treatment or loses control of their mindset. And so, this all does start at a very young age. I think that I’ve seen there’s a lot of confusion around food, eating disorders. A lot of this, especially for the younger females, I find, is so prevalent, especially with social media and being in the house. And typically, that comes from a parent, where the child feels like they’re being controlled a lot. They feel like they’re so controlled that the one thing they can control is food. That’s a pattern I’ve seen so many times. Parent doesn’t realize it. They’re doing the best they can, but they’re projecting their own emotions onto them.

I think it’s also really helpful to establish, like, a fun bonding time, like, actually understanding what your child wants to do by giving them options. You know, like, sometimes a kid will grow up in a family where the family loves football, so they think they should just play football. But a parent should give their child…And I know the parent really wants their kid to play football and go to their high school, and they have a whole vision for their kid. But think about it, I mean, if the kid’s…and sports are fantastic, as we know through research and everything. There’s a lot of sports. There’s a lot of communities. Really what it is, is community, right? Yes, it’s athletics. It’s fantastic for the body. But, you know, from my experience, you’re born into this family system, it’s easier for the parents to have their son go play football. But giving the son experiences and some options, even though you really want them to play football, is healthy because it’s giving them the freedom to start choosing what they enjoy. They won’t get resentful later on like they had to do it. And I think that’s something that parents seem to think, from my experience, that their kid suddenly should become an Ohio State fan just because they were. It’s like, you know, help a kid figure out, like, who they are, how they wanna live in the life, what they really love because they’re all such authentic, brilliant little creatures. You know, and we have to let that come out, you know.

Katie: I’m so glad you brought up that point because I think there’s many ways this plays out. And like you said, food seems to be a very common one and one that every parent has to navigate because we all have to feed our children. But it’s hard I think, especially as a mom, when your baby is literally grown in your body to break that mindset and realize as soon as they come out, they are separate of us and they are their own person. And I think maybe, like, community and culture is the beautiful way to do that. Like, create a community and culture in your family and in your small environment that they want to be part of, rather than maybe forcing that dynamic. And probably that goes a lot farther away. But when it even comes to the food situation or as they become teenagers, maybe the alcohol situation, things like that, it seems like psychologically, they are geared to need to separate from the family at some point and to figure out their own path. And to the degree that we try to inhibit that, we almost force them to do that more because they’re not able to go through that normal developmental stage. And I know it’s hard as a parent. I’m right there too with teenagers.

But it seems like any time, like, to your point, we can give them options and autonomy and let them make decisions in a safe way when we’re really actually empowering them and probably increasing the chances of them wanting to be part of our family culture versus demanding it. Are there any other things we can do to, kind of, try to break that control dynamic? I think of things, like, maybe with food of, like, even though I’m in the health world and we eat healthy at home, I view it as my responsibility is to cook. I cook clean food, but their responsibility is to decide if they’re hungry or not. And if they’re not hungry, or they don’t like it, I will never force them to eat. And if they’re not in my home, if they’re with a friend, I don’t try to control their food choices. They’re responsible for making food choices and learning the consequences of those choices. But I’m curious, like, are there strategies you give to parents to help break that control dynamic? Because it’s hard when we love our kids so, so much.

Mike: Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think everyone has their own authentic idea around, you know, what it means to support versus do it for them, to control versus, you know, keep safe. And so everyone’s a little bit different. From my experience working with families, it’s really important to allow and encourage someone to make decisions and make mistakes. You know, if somebody has choices and they make a decision, let’s say to…You know, there’s a lot of freedom that happens because it starts to build resilience inside of someone when they make mistakes. Mistakes are fantastic. Realizing what you don’t like or you didn’t enjoy doing blank activity, that’s fantastic. It’s not, oh, I’m so sorry that you didn’t love it. It’s more like, ooh, that’s really good to know that you don’t like that. And if you can teach your kids just that flip of obstacles becoming opportunities, they’re gonna be so resilient. Period. Coddling them when they had a bad experience is not going to build resilience.

Katie: Yeah, and that seems to be a commonality of biographies I read of successful people, that idea that and even in the stoicism idea, the obstacle is the way. And if you can frame it as there’s a lesson in this. And I know, like, it’s hard to do in the moment, certainly. But I can now look back even in, like, my most severe trauma during high school and say, honestly, I’m so grateful that happened. I wouldn’t have chosen it. I would never choose it for my kids. But I’m so grateful it happened because it taught me so many things. And so I think yeah, you’re right, if we can give our kids that mindset early on, that’s a huge key to them being able to face challenges without falling into those fear, stress, and anxiety loops you talked about.

Mike: Correct. And setting it up so they don’t have a victim mentality as they navigate life, where they think there’s a reward system. Because if the reward is coming from mom or dad, who are the most important relationships in a kid’s life, then it starts to teach a kid that behaving this type of way or if an experience is unpleasant, and you complain, that there’s gonna be this reward of nurturing or you don’t have to feel that type of way, but later in life, that’s not how life works. That’s not how business works. Maybe in the academic system, it’s gonna be coded a certain type of way that’s gonna be hypersensitive to everyone’s…you know, trying to be sensitive to every emotion. But once you get out of college, it’s just not like that anymore. And it’s not what people find attractive in partners or relationships, you know. But it’s such a great opportunity to change that conversation in, you know, your kids’ head. I think that’s…The fact that you…You know, I don’t even remember people like you, Katie, when I was growing up, who would, you know, provide advice to someone like my mom. You know, she would just flip on the television, you know, it’s 15 stations. And so parents now have such an opportunity to learn so much.

Katie: It’s true that the benefits of technology give us all this. We still have to be careful of how we curate that I think because it’s also got its downsides. But you’re right, we have the ability to learn from all of these amazing people throughout history at our fingertips and to teach our kids very much in the same way.

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I think you’ve touched on something that it leads into another question I wanted to ask, which is the idea of motivation, both self-motivation and curating motivation in our kids because I think it’s actually really illustrative of both within that how you mentioned, we don’t wanna just do this with our kids in a reward system, so they’re dependent on external rewards for their own motivation. And I think this applies to us as adults as well. But yet I see people, kind of, falling into that idea of trying to motivate themselves through some kind of external reward versus intrinsically.

And I know, you said if you could give a TED talk on any topic, one of them will be why motivational talks alone don’t work. And I think this is such an important point because whether it’s trying to lose weight, or get healthier, or make any kind of lasting life change, we have to have that ability to stick to it. And I have read some of your work. So I think this is a really important topic, how do we navigate the motivation component?

Mike: Well, I think it’s figuring out what is authentic for us and what is authentic for our kids. And it’s always evolving. We’re always evolving. So, what worked yesterday may not work in the future. So for some people, it’s figuring out, okay, what is going to create inspiration? For some people, it’s motivation. You know, sometimes motivation, it is creating a reward system that if, you know, the child cleans up after themselves, and takes out the trash, and does what’s necessary as part of the household, then, you know, it may be that there is dinner…you know, consistently if that happens so many times, there’s dinner at your favorite restaurant together or what have you. Like, that to me is all healthy. And it’s a part of teaching people that good things happen when you show up in the family, in your own life. But everyone’s different.

So, for some people, I found it’s music. It’s figuring out, listen, turn on that nostalgic song that you loved in high school or in college, and sit there for 5 to 10 minutes, and just chill with it. Like, just chill. And what I’ve found 9 times out of 10 when I’ve helped people do this, unless they’re completely unwilling to look at life any different, they’re so, “No, I’m gonna be stressed out and I don’t wanna feel any type of way. It’s not gonna work.” But if someone has a little bit of openness, music is tremendous if that’s something that vibrates through you and changes you. For some people, it’s exercise. For some people, it’s gonna be breathing. For some people, it’s journaling. For some people, it’s community. So it’s just knowing yourself and understanding, “Here are the different things that get me charged up to be inspired and motivated.”

Katie: Yeah, that makes sense. And yeah, I think that the point you mentioned is the internal key that we all have to navigate, which is being willing to make the change. And I learned, for myself, like, for a lot of years, I thought I was willing to make the changes but because of some past trauma stuff, I actually, there were parts of my brain that were saying it’s not safe to make these changes. And sometimes there’s things where we have to deal with a core thing, often that seems to go back to childhood, so that we can be in a mental space to be willing to actually make the changes. And then so often, the motivation can stem much more easily beyond that point. And I think it seems like many of us, even the high achievers that I talked to, emerge from childhood with, kind of, one of these core limiting beliefs, something along the lines of maybe I’m not good enough, or I’m not lovable, or I’m not worth whatever…So, I’m curious, do you run into that with your high achievers? And if so, how would you help them to work through that?

Mike: Well, I mean, I’ve been through this with everyone, you know, they all have a committee…Unless there’s just extreme narcissism, I mean, then it’s hard to get through, like, what…Okay, you know, why am I here then, what do you need me for? But, yeah, I mean, we all wanna be loved and we all get imposter syndrome or feeling like we’re a fraud at times or we’re not good enough. And I think we look for external validation because sometimes we just don’t feel enough today. But, you know, from my experience, it’s having that insight. When you know what you’re actually thinking, there’s relief in it because you know you’re actually thinking it and you have the ability to make decisions to change the way you think.

But you bring up a good point because if you’re able to say, “Look, like, I’ve had this long-standing belief that I’m not good enough or I’m not lovable,” then there’s a place to work from to go like, “Well, what would make me feel more lovable? Is this even realistic? Like, where did I create this story?” You know, and sometimes, I find working with other people is just tremendous because it helps us find our blind spots. You know, doing this all alone, some people are capable…I almost look at, like, they’re the person in school who doesn’t need to be a part of any study committees. They can do it themselves. They’re focused. But at a certain point, just connecting with other people who have had that same feeling or feel the way you do is a game-changer.

Katie: Absolutely. And that goes back to that idea of community as well, which I think we know from the statistics, at least on the health side, having strong community in our daily life is actually one of the most important things we can do for health and longevity. It’s actually more important than not smoking or exercising. Like, it’s drastically important. And so, I think maybe that’s a key as well as if that’s something that’s one of those areas of your sphere that’s lacking, maybe that’s a really important one to prioritize, and certainly one I feel like a lot of people are struggling with after this past year, that community’s been hard for a lot of people after this past year. Do you have any tips for curating a community? Because I don’t feel like it happens as naturally as it used to. For my grandma, it was like you had community built-in in your neighborhood or with your family, and in today’s very virtual world and very fast-paced world, that’s changed so much. And I feel like we have to be much more proactive about really creating this now.

Mike: Yeah, I think…I mean, it’s such an opportunity to find a community. Like, I go to jiu-jitsu. I started going to jiu-jitsu eight months ago. I’m 41 years old. I’m 6’5, 275 pounds. I’m built like a tree, right? But I went, “Uh-oh, there’s not…” Like, I’m a recovering alcoholic. So I could go to recovery meetings. I like jiu-jitsu, I could go to jiu-jitsu. I like fitness, I could join a fitness group. There’s so many different types of communities. I think sometimes we don’t stick around long enough to realize where the love is. Like, we kind of go into it maybe feeling a little insecure but there’s such…The virtual communities, yes, it’s great to have a virtual community, but there’s something about being able to connect with people in person. And, you know, religion has figured this thing out better than anyone on Earth. I mean, those communities, they’re just like, you know, they’re, like, businesses they have. Like, and so if someone’s a part of religion, I’m not but, like, it’s figuring out for yourself, what is gonna create that love and how can you give love back? How are you adding something too? And figuring out something because your kids are gonna get older. So it’s not just being a part of school communities.

Katie: Yeah, you’re right. I think that’s a good point that we can learn from that even if…And I think you’re right, religious traditions have gotten this right for a long time. And I think a huge part of their importance of people’s life is that community aspect, but they do things that we can all learn from, even if, like you, that’s not a big part of your life, of they meet regularly, and they focus on growth toward a common goal and things like that. So just having those factors, you can unite around other common goals or get together regularly in other atmospheres. But you’re right, I think that’s an easy place for a lot of people like the most natural place where they can, kind of, plug into that. But for people who aren’t in a religious community, that’s a great thing to learn from and to create community in your life.

Mike: Oh, yeah. I mean, are you…? What communities are you a part of?

Katie: Oh, well, so ours locally has been, kind of, amazing, actually, due to COVID it got even better. Geographically, we live in an area with a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of homeschoolers. So we’ve been able to unite around those things. And then even we live near a pole vault facility. So my kids all pole vault and they’ve united around the…

Mike: That’s cool.

Katie: …idea of an athletic activity and things like that. So, ours is very geographic and thankfully is like that 1950s neighborhood where you’re close to all your friends. And I’m extremely grateful for that. But I haven’t always had that either. In the past, I’ve had to be much more intentional about forming that and inviting people over. And I tell people, that’s also a key is if you don’t have it naturally, be the one that starts it. Be the one that puts yourself out there and invites people over or be the house where everybody’s always welcome and teenagers can always come hang. Like, my kids’ friends are welcome, anytime, any day. I will feed any children in my house. I always wanted to be the place where my kids felt that they wanted to hang out and to bring their friends to hang out. And then by ripple of that, I’ve become really great friends with some of those parents and developed friendships as well. But I think in today’s world, the lesson is you just have to sometimes be the one who put yourself out there and that creates it.

Mike: Yeah. Absolutely.

Katie: And you also talk a lot about the idea of making authentic decisions, and I think this is another really key point, and one that is also harder in the modern world because we have so many distractions and so many forces that are competing to tell us what are the types of decisions we should make and what’s important and what’s not. So, talk about that and the idea of authentic decisions and how you know what that is and how to do it.

Mike: Well, you know, I think the challenge is when we don’t necessarily need it, and we can’t…Okay, I created, you know, one decision called the FORCE, right? So FORCE is an acronym, and the F is for fortune-telling, the hack to it is fact-finding. And so, to fortune-tell would be essentially that we predict what’s gonna happen. And so, we’re not really making authentic decisions if we’re just trying to lean into what we’re expecting the result is going to be or we just think other people are doing this, so I’m going to do it too. And so, you know, it’s really hard sometimes to know for ourselves what is authentic when we’re in fear of any kind. And so, I think there’s so many decisions we make every day that are just, kind of, on autopilot, they don’t really matter. And then there’s the decisions that maybe are more critical decisions, where we’re figuring out what is our authentic decision in this sense?

And there’s no, like, good or bad decisions. Like, they’re just decisions because, in hindsight, we could look back at her life and go, “Gosh, I’m so glad I did that. I wasn’t going to do that.” And then we try to go, “Well, was that authentic? Was that not authentic?” But I think authentic, it’s really just trying to get honest with itself. It’s like making decisions from an honest point and understand what your intention is. It’s really what it is. And if you need to create an avatar to help you go through making those decisions authentically, sometimes it’s helpful to be like, “Well, what would kangaroo Katie do?” Well, she’d hop right into the next and she would basically show up and…You know, so it sounds so simple, but it kind of is.

Katie: Yeah. And I think that’s another important life lesson is sometimes it doesn’t have to be this complicated. And sometimes you wanna create all these elaborate strategies and systems, and sometimes those are needed, but sometimes it’s not. And sometimes it doesn’t have to be that hard. And I know, for me, one of those internal things was I had this script of like, “Oh, if only this, this and this happen, then I will be happy.” And then I eventually realized, I can actually just choose happiness now, and I can choose to accept my body now, and I can choose community now, even until I’m still working on these other things. And, like, to your earlier point, we have the ability and the power, when we take responsibility for things to make those decisions. We don’t have to wait on all the external factors to line up for us.

Mike: Yeah, you nailed it.

Katie: Well, and as we get close to the end of time, a few other questions I love to ask. The first thing if there’s any other areas that are commonly misunderstood or that there are misconceptions about when it comes to the work that you do.

Mike: Yeah, I think there’s misunderstandings that you need to pay to be coached. Like, there’s so many coaching programs out there. So it’s kind of created, like, to me, like, this belief that, like, you have to sign up for this program or this program in order to get what you need, but there’s so many free resources out there. Like, I have a free group, which I’d love for you to speak at. It’s our empowerment group every Tuesday, 5:00 p.m. Pacific Time. Like, our next group is all about an expert coming in talking about grief, and how do you deal with loss? And it’s over Zoom with, like, 400 people and, like, it’s free. And then we have a food and wellness group on Wednesdays at 4:00 p.m. It’s free and it’s a community of people really interested in a healthier lifestyle. And so podcasts, free. And so sometimes I think people maybe will pay to think that there…Unless you’re joining a community, I don’t know if your best time and energy spent is, you know, paying $20,000 for someone’s executive program. I know that doesn’t help my business but I’m just saying, like, that’s not…That’s one, what did you say, misconception is that you need in order to advance or evolve or grow in your life that, like, these “gurus” have figured it out and you must do it.

Katie: That’s a good one. Yeah, I think you’re right. And I tell my kids too, like, we take an alternative approach to education but we literally have access to more than the Library of Alexandria right here on our phone. Like, all the resources are there. We have access to them through podcasts, through the internet. You can find all of these resources for free. And I think there is value sometimes to paying for a specific program if it helps you stick to it and to having a more one-on-one approach for very specific things. But to get started, there’s so much already available that’s there and…

Mike: If you have the money, right, like, if you don’t have the money, chill a bit, like, you know. Like, and the other is people want to help people. People want to share wisdom. So, by asking someone to get coffee with you and to tell more of their story, it’s a compliment to them. You’re not actually…You may feel insecure like you’re being needy but people love to share. Now, they’re not gonna do it for you. They’re not gonna necessarily go make introductions, no expectations. But people love to teach other people, as long as there’s no drama and as long as there’s no, like, feeling like they have to do something. But if they’re just giving their wisdom, one of the greatest moments for so many people is being able to teach other people. And I know sometimes there’s this, I don’t know, I don’t wanna call so and so because, you know, I don’t wanna bother them. You’re not bothering them. They would love to tell you.

Katie: Yeah, exactly. And then that’s a great jumping-in point to community as well. And yeah.

Mike: Yeah, exactly.

Katie: I love that. Another question I love to ask is obviously other than your own that I’ll link to in the show notes, is there a book or a number of books that have had a profound impact on your life? And if so, what they are and why.

Mike: Yeah. So, I mean, there’s several. I love Terry Brooks novels, which are fantasies. So there’s this book called “Swords of Shannara,” which I just love fantasy in every format and type. I mean, I’m a sober guy. So, “Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book” is great. It’s pretty cheap. It’s like 17 bucks and it’s a guide if you wanna get off drinking. There’s a book called “The Unquiet Mind” by Kay Redfield Jamison and it’s all about bipolar disorder from her perspective as a psychiatrist who has it. I mean, I’m more either fantasy or mental health-driven in terms of the types of books that I really love.

Katie: I love it. It’s on my list to get better at reading more fiction because I tend to, like, go into the deep sciency stuff. So I’m gonna make sure those are linked in the show notes.

Mike: Terry Brooks is so good. He’s so talented.

Katie: That’s a new recommendation. I’ll make sure it’s linked. That, I guess, ties in with the wizard and the male witch and all that kind of tied in to your own life.

Mike: You got it. Yeah, no, I mean, if you saw my house, you’d see wizards and color, and even, like, my logo’s a wizard because I remember…I have to remind myself…We all have to have reminders in our life to help nudge us along the way of being our best selves. So…

Katie: I love it. And yeah, that’s definitely been the theme of this episode is all those factors, both positive and negative, to help you become your best self. And with that in mind, do you have any parting advice for anyone listening today?

Mike: I mean, this sounds so cliche, but just for the last year, it’s just life is short. Life is just happening and do it today. You don’t have to wait. You can just start going at it today and make those changes, make those decisions today. You know, you’re not really working on it if you’re not doing it today. You know? And so might as well just do it today and make one decision towards a better life.

Katie: I love that quote, “You’re not really working on it if you’re not doing it today.”

Mike: Everyone says I’m always like, “Oh, well, I’m working on that.” Well, how are you working on that? “Well, I think about it.” Oh, you think about it?

Katie: We don’t have to wait for a Monday or the first of the month or…

Mike: Right.

Katie: Yeah, exactly. Just get started. And there’s so many quotes along those lines, that just taking that first step or action makes other action easier. Just do the small thing and start going. Awesome. Well, I know how busy you are. I appreciate the time today. This has been a really fun interview. And thank you for being here.

Mike: Thank you, Katie. I appreciate you and look forward to following up and seeing all of what you’re doing. I think you’re amazing, spreading the love and the message. So thank you very much.

Katie: Oh, thank you. And thanks to all of you guys for listening, and for sharing your most valuable resources, your time, and your energy with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did, and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the “Wellness Mama” podcast.

If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.

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