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This episode is sponsored by Wellnesse, that’s wellness with an E on the end. It’s my personal care brand of products that I created when I realized that some of my friends and family members were still using some pretty toxic personal care products simply because they worked better. I set out to create truly natural products that outperformed conventional alternatives, and Wellnesse is the result. Our super popular whitening toothpaste has been helping families create healthier oral microbiomes for a couple of years now. And our hair food, hair care nourishes the scalp from the outside in, which is why we get so many testimonials about hair regrowth and thicker, healthier hair. But today, I’m excited to tell you about our brand new silk floss. Most floss is actually plastic and can be coated with some pretty unsavory ingredients that you’re rubbing directly into your gums. Since what goes in the mouth goes into the rest of the body, we created a truly natural silk-based floss that is gentle, yet effective at keeping your teeth and gums clean and fresh. Check out our floss and all of our products at wellnesse.com.

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Katie: Hello, and welcome to the “Wellness Mama” podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. That’s wellnesse with an E on the end. It’s my new personal care line. And this episode is all about raising and parenting healthy kids with healthy brains and bodies in a very changing world. And I’m here with a dear friend, Madiha Saeed, who is also known as the HolisticMom, MD on social media. And she’s a practicing, board-certified family physician as well as an international speaker and author. She’s working with even the UN on creating better nutritional guidelines. And we’re talking about her best-selling book, the original one, “The Holistic Rx: Your Guide to Healing Chronic Inflammation and Disease,” and also, her new book, “The Holistic Rx for Kids: Parenting Healthy Brains and Bodies in a Changing World.”

And we go through a lot of topics in this episode, but a lot of practical advice on parenting, integrating, giving your kids a healthy foundation, the reason that children are suffering more than they have in the past, how to speak to the various parts of your child’s brain, why inflammation is the root cause of children’s chronic disease and how to address it, how to raise mindful children who understand their environment, the factors as a mom to be aware of to teach your children how to listen to their innate awareness of health, how things as simple as lack of protein can cause a cascade of changes on the brain level, how to build a healthy foundation in children, how to view their symptoms and understand them as them having a problem, not being a problem, and so much more. I always love, love, love talking to Madiha. I know that you will enjoy listening to this, so I cannot wait. Let’s join her now.

Madiha, you are one of my favorite people to talk to. I just said before we started recording, you are literally a giant beacon of light and love. I’m so excited to chat with you on this very rainy Monday morning, where I live. So, welcome. Thanks for being here.

Madiha: Oh my gosh, my honor, my pleasure, Katie, I am so incredibly honored. Thank you so much for having me.

Katie: Well, I feel the same way. Anyone who isn’t already familiar with you should be, because you are one of my favorite resources and favorite people. You’re absolutely incredible. You are like a mom who seems to… I’m sure it’s not effortless, but do it all effortlessly, and with grace. And I wanna talk about a lot of health stuff. But first, I have a note in my show notes that you are a professional henna artist. And I wanna hear about this, because I have this strange obsession with henna. And every time I have the chance to get it done, I’m like, my whole body. Could you just cover my whole body?

Madiha: Yes. Oh my gosh, I’m like that. So, no, I mean, I’ve always been artistic, right, using both sides of the brain. But I’ve always been artistic. And so, henna I’ve been doing for, probably since I remember. Whenever we went to Pakistan, as a child, in my grandmother’s house in, like, the rural area, she actually had a henna tree. And we would actually take the leaves off and grind it ourselves, and then into a paste. So, I started from, like, you know, just taking it off the trees, grinding it, making it into a paste, and then applying it to our hands. And that was probably, like, seven years old, doing that. And since then, I mean, I’ve messed up my sister’s hands multiple times as I was learning, you know, because you obviously need, like, practice. But, amazing. So much fun. And now, I do it on brides. It can take hours. I’m not 100… Like, I can’t do it in a second, but it could take hours. But I do it on brides, all over my body. I did it… Actually, I did it on my wedding, over my hands and my feet, on both sides on my own… So, I’m telling you, I love it. So much fun.

Katie: That is some impressive dexterity. I recently had a friend get married. She’s from an Indian background, and she had the most gorgeous henna all over her whole body. Just thought it was so, so, so beautiful. I love that you do that, and how cool that you got to get in touch with the actual roots of it, and, like, making it yourself.

Madiha: Yeah, that’s what I grew up with. And now, obviously, there’s a lot of chemicals that they’ve added to henna. So that’s why I still try to go for, like, the most purest source if you’re gonna do that. And that’s another thing that, you know, even henna, you think something as simple as henna, we did it, actually, on my cousin’s hands, when I did it on her for her bridal. She wanted the chemical one, and actually burned her skin. So you have to be really, really careful, for months. She had to immediately take it off because it burned. So, where it used to start off with just, you know, natural, completely organic, and now it’s been, you know, tampered with, just like everything else in our planet. So, something to be cautious about.

Katie: Well, I feel like that’s actually the perfect segue in, because there’s a lot of, unfortunately, things that that is the case in today’s world. I know you are super well-versed in this, and you educate thousands and thousands of families about this, both as a medical doctor and as a mom, which I think you balance so well and gives you such an incredible perspective into the life of a mother, and also understanding the medical side. And I know you have a new book that I got to preview, which I’m super excited about and I’m a huge fan of, which is “The Holistic Rx for Kids,” and which is what I was so excited to have you on today, because unfortunately, it’s no secret that there’s a rise of all these problems in our kids, rates of things that truly should not have doubled, tripled, quadrupled in one generation, but they have.

Madiha: Seriously.

Katie: So, as moms, I feel like we’re on the front lines, trying to reverse these trends. That was a big part of my story was realizing this is happening, and saying, “This is not okay for my kids. This is not okay for any kids.” And I think moms are the ones who have the ability to create the change, and you have such a unique perspective. So, to start broad, can you walk us through, like, why are we seeing these changes? Why are our children suffering so much now compared to in the past?

Madiha: So, you know, what? And I think that’s the key question, is the why, right? Because suicide is on a rise. You know, mental health issues are on the rise. Autism is on the rise. Basically, almost every chronic health condition, even in children, and adults, are on the rise. So I think it really comes down to, you know, asking that question why, right? Why is your child sick? Why are they difficult to parent? Why are children suffering? Why are we overall as humanity suffering? But, understanding that why, that’s where the hope lies. And that’s what’s so powerful, right? Because that “why” is exactly what’s going on, because our entire lives right now are totally imbalanced. We need to understand why. And because we are currently, right now, our children are making the wrong decisions because… And their brains are not working properly. Their bodies are not working properly. And when it comes to our decisions, our kids’ decisions, what they wear, what they choose to eat, you know, it’s all dictated by their brain.

So, if their child is constantly making the wrong decision, guess what? Their health and their brains are suffering. And so, if we can put our children’s brains and bodies back into balance, that can really make a huge difference in their lives now, and for years to come. And then, specifically, when it comes to our brains, because I think even though we know, as parents, we’ve been hearing about this. We know that these foods are not good. We know that we need to exercise. We know these things. But unfortunately, you know, our children’s and ourselves brains and bodies have been hijacked. And there’s two main pieces of decision-making. And that is, that is really critical in this entire science of decision-making, which is called neuroeconomics. And neuroeconomics, you know, two main pieces, prefrontal cortex and the amygdala. The prefrontal cortex is the more developed part of the brain, and it’s, like, that responsible for your rational decision-making. It examines the pros and the cons, and it helps your child really think about their actions after taking a whole, you know, look at the whole picture.

And then we have is the amygdala, which is, like, the reactive part of the brain. And that one is fight and flight, you know, impulsive. But the thing is, in order to make a thought, a rational thought-out decision, we need to, you know, have both sides working appropriately together in unison. But that’s where the parenting books and stuff got right. But what’s going in today’s world, is today’s our children’s lifestyles are completely out of balance. And despite warnings of a healthy diet, and obesity, and the rise in, you know, the diabetes, I mean, there’s recent statistics CNN reported that diabetes have more than doubled in children in this last year. That’s craziness.

But still, our children are eating more fast food now than ever, junk food, limited diet variety, you know, lack of sleep, lack of nature, lack of exercise and play, negative social environment, all increased exposure to toxins inside, outside of the homes, increased screentime, all contributing to this imbalanced child, leading to inflammation, one of the underlying reasons of chronic disease. Chronic inflammation is technically hijacking our brains, our bodies, and it’s leading to children with, that are just constantly us versus them mentality, their brains are not working, lack of empathy, and their bodies are suffering.

Katie: I absolutely agree. And I know you and I, because we’ve talked about this before, share a heart for that, like, really true connection with children, and understanding how much they’re capable of knowing. I know that’s been a lesson for me.

Madiha: Absolutely.

Katie: The beauty is we don’t have to force any of this. Children are so incredibly capable of understanding, and when we approach it from a perspective of curiosity, and education, and explaining to them, they’re incredibly adept at grasping that at a young age, and integrating for themselves. We don’t have to iron fist this at all. And I know…

Madiha: Absolutely.

Katie: …you share that message. So, explain… You talk a lot about holistic parenting, which I think is a beautiful term. Explain what you mean by that, and how this, like, I’m sure in your life, too, is not a fight. It’s a beautiful journey with your children.

Madiha: It’s a journey, exactly. Absolutely. Because we are mind-body-soul, and our children are mind-body-soul. So, holistic parenting can really help nurture a child’s mind-body-soul from the inside out, and giving them the skills that they actually need for emotional intelligence, you know, enduring, deep, real friendships, making correct decisions, managing stress, and being able to remain resilient, all through childhood, adulthood, no matter what life throws at them. And so, holistic parenting, I feel, is all about raising these mindful children, right? Because we know that mindfulness allows us to see the internal and the external environments really clearly, and showing us how best to respond and be fully aware on many different levels of perceptions all at once.

So, really, holistic parenting is also all about, you know, educating and empowering our children to be mindful of their bodies, their minds, their emotions, their social lives, their environment, you know, learning how to keep their bodies balanced, and giving them the autonomy that they need to make the correct decisions, but to know when their bodies are starting to go off balance, because when a child is mindful about what’s going on in their bodies, you know, they can start to feel when they’re going off balance, and then immediately, on their own, start to correct that imbalances. And so, that then increases their resilience in any situation, and environment. So, I mean, it’s so powerful that, you know… I have four children. Mine are 13, 10, 8, and 6. And I’ve been sort of experimenting with them this whole time, right? And so, it’s so much fun, because when we can really teach them to be mindful and incorporate all of these different levels of perception, all at once, and take into account how they feel, their bodies, their brains, their emotions…

My seven-year-old, who had walked in, I have literally walked in downstairs, and they’ll be like, they’re eating a bowl of sauerkraut. And I’m like, “What are you doing? Why are you eating a bowl of sauerkraut for breakfast?” They’re like, “I woke up a little agitated this morning, so I wanted to feed my good bugs, and help my body get back into balance, so I ate the sauerkraut, mom. And that’s all I want for breakfast. I’m good.” I was like, “Okay.” Or when you see your 10-year-old just meditating on their own, to bring their nervous system back into balance, right? It is so powerful, because before it even becomes a problem, they’re able to then self-regulate themselves. And that is where the power lies.

Katie: Absolutely. Because truly, at the end of the day, we’re not always gonna be there to be that voice for them. So it’s about how do we help them learn that voice and learn those guideposts for themselves, which makes, ironically, the whole journey of motherhood so much easier, and to use your words, so much more fun.

Madiha: So much fun.

Katie: Children are this amazing gift, and when we don’t feel like we have to fight them, it gets… like you said, is that autonomy. And often, I feel like we underestimate how incredibly intelligent and innately, much more than we are, maybe, aware of their body that they are. So it’s all about teaching them that. It’s about just helping them not lose the touch with their natural rhythms. I love that story about your son, I believe, who knew what his body wanted, and he was able to follow that. And I think, like you said, it all goes back to the education and the autonomy. I’ve had similar experiences, like, my five-year-old, I once looked back in the car, it was raining, all her siblings were being loud, and she’s just sitting in the back meditating. And she was like, “I want some quiet.” I’m like, that’s perfect. You listened to your body and your brain. And I think, also, though, that does bring the impetus on the parents of how do we educate them? Because that’s really what it goes down to. It’s not the iron fist. I never tell my kids they cannot have these foods, or if they’re at a friend’s house, they must not eat the cupcake.

Madiha: Absolutely.

Katie: It’s their decision. And I have been blown away over and over by how well, when they are just taught to trust themselves, they make that decision, with no outside impetus from me, no overarching fist of, like, “You must never eat sugar.” It’s not that at all. They know. So, as parents, like, what do we need to know? What are some of those core principles that we can pass on to them? Because like you said, it all goes back to inflammation. And unfortunately, inflammation can be that thing that makes it hard to listen to our bodies. And I think that’s also part of the conversation with our kids. But what are some of those kind of maybe core ideas as moms that we can be aware of and pass on to them, so that they get to keep that innate awareness they already have?

Madiha: Absolutely. And I love what you just said there, that you just have them make their decisions, right? It’s not like us really telling them what they need to do all the time, or what they can do and what they can eat, but it’s all about building a better brain, right, to get those two pieces that we talked about, the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala, working appropriately. I mean, Dr. Perlmutter actually had an amazing book called “Brain Wash,” also, that talks about, and he actually quoted in there, that “The shift away from the prefrontal cortex represents the greatest existential threat to human survival.” So heavy. And that’s exactly what’s going on with our children, and the children’s brains are just not working the way that they should. So, where are we gonna start? And for me, I started off with digestive health and detoxification, social stress, sleep, social, and spiritual health.

And, so, because our children’s brains and bodies are made of food. And, I mean, studies have shown over and over and over that children right now are, you know, at a critical phase of neuro development with lots of hormones, and structures, and behaviors, and molecule connections and, you know, specifically adolescents are then, you know, vulnerable to these stresses that can lead to behavioral changes. And so, their brains and bodies, if they’re not getting the proper nutrients that they need from those real foods to function, then how can we expect their brains to even work properly? So, I mean, specifically, when it comes to adolescent brains, this junk food can impair their ability to think, and learn, and, you know, remember, and, you know, perform, even just memories, simple memories, tasks. And actually, their brains are still developing. And so, therefore, they’re unable to, you know, assess the risks and control actions, and they actually have more dopamine receptors in their brain, so, therefore, they’re able to get more… Like, they feel more of, like, this reward from this junk food.

But the adolescents’ brains can easily then be influenced by their environment. But specifically, again, now let’s go to children. It’s so powerful. There’s, like, more and more research showing how, you know, these fruits and vegetables… And they just did actually a recent study in the UK where they, you know, did, research teams studied data from about 9,000 children in 50 schools, and they found that just eating more fruits and vegetables was better for mental health. I mean, we knew that, but now science is starting to show that.

But another big piece is your gut microbiome, right? Because studies have actually shown that, you know, the infant gut microbiome undergoes dynamic changes in the first 36 months of life. And during the first three years of life, the development of the microbiome is influenced by neonatal and maternal exposures, diet, lifestyle. And our children’s environments really play a huge role in shifting the gut microbiota early in life. And that diversity is then really important in determining the health of our children’s brains, bodies, and behavior. So, a recently, actually, in 2021, it was published in “Gut Microbiome,” the research is actually at University of Alberta, they actually followed more than 400 infants, and found that those children with the gut bacterial composition, those boys with the gut bacterial composition high in a specific bacteria called Bacteroides, at one year of age, were found to have more advanced cognition and language skills one year later, you know.

So, Bacteroides, again, is one of those specific bacteria that produces metabolites called sphingolipids, which are instrumental in the formation and structure of the neurons in the brain. So then it makes sense that if we have more of this microbe, then they produce more of the sphingolipids, that can then, you know, have improved brain function. Which is then so important, because this is just the beginning. We’re just starting to understand this, that… And then you say, how can you get more Bacteroides, is factors, again, same thing that influence the gut microbiota, breastfeeding, having a high-fiber diet, you know, living with a dog or animals, and then being exposed to nature and green spaces.

But it’s so powerful that over the first one or two years, your brain is so malleable. And same with our gut microbiome. And so, if we can give our children, starting from diet-wise, the nutrition that they need to really optimize brain function, that can be really powerful. And then also, not even just as in the gut microbiome, studies have actually shown in, like, almost 2,500 children, that there were found that were overweight and obese, they actually suffer from, from ages from 8 to 16, they are actually suffering from more psychosocial and cognitive consequences in academic performance. So, it’s not just what we eat, it’s how much we eat.

And also then the lack of what we’re eating, because unfortunately, right now, our diet has been, you know, shifting, where lack of diversity… Ninety percent of the Americans, including our children, are deficient in one or more nutrients, which is crazy because then it creates, like, these nutrient and vitamin deficiencies, and then obviously, we’re not getting it in our bodies. Our bodies and brains are not able to function appropriately without them. Like, for example, lack of protein then results in a cascade of negative consequences at the brain level, you know, decreasing the brain volume, altered hippocampal formation. I mean, it is craziness. Same with Omega 3s, and then vitamin D, selenium, vitamin K2, vitamin E, potassium, are all currently lost from the modern diet, and is affecting our children’s brains and bodies.

Katie: And I love that. I think a key of what you just said is focusing on the positive and the nourishment aspect, versus… And this ties into diet culture as well. It’s not about the deprivation. It never was. It’s not like the, “We must avoid processed foods because they are bad.” That’s an element of it. But more so, it’s, we only have a limited amount of calories we can consume per day. How do we educate our children and ourselves about consuming the best possible options to nourish our brain and bodies? And it’s not just, like to your point, it’s not just what we eat. It’s also what our gut bacteria eats. And I feel like that’s what the research keeps pointing to is, it’s not just, like, don’t eat the bad stuff, it’s that you’re nourishing not just yourself, your own brain, your body, but also the bacteria in your gut that control your neurotransmitters, that control all of this. It’s like the master control switch of hormones in the body. And as a side benefit, it’s much easier to parent a child who has not got neurotransmitters all over the place, who’s not having crazy mood swings.

Madiha: So much yes.

Katie: And to the earlier point, kids are innately able to understand this if we give them the opportunity, and don’t assume that they can’t. You know, like, we know, our gut microbiome, like you said, controls the brain. So it’s like, how do we give our children the best starting point and foundation for having these optimal neurotransmitters? And I also feel like it’s important to speak to moms who maybe didn’t know or didn’t have the opportunity to have the perfect birth experience, for instance, and transfer that bacteria, or to breastfeed as long as they wanted, or whatever the case may be. The beauty is, we’re seeing in research, all is not lost. And I know, you see this in your patients, like, there’s so much you can do, even if you didn’t get the optimal start, it doesn’t matter. There’s so much available. So maybe walk us through some of those basic steps you take with your patients, and then I know that you implement with your family every day of building that solid foundation, even if maybe you didn’t get the best start.

Madiha: Absolutely. All is not lost. And so, again, really focus… I try to keep it as simple as possible, focusing on your digestive health and detoxification, and the four S’s, stress, sleep, social, and spiritual health. So, specifically, when it comes to nutrients that regulate, you know, every single chemical reaction in our child’s body, right, just specifically starting with food, tons of fruits and vegetables, eating the rainbow, you know, packed with color, fiber, nutrients, minerals, good fats, clean protein. And, you know, that’s shown, you know, that they can have healthier brains. They’re less violent. They improve their behavior and bodies, you know, so, again, it lowers chronic inflammation. So, I have my patients and my families go down a list, trying to keep it simple, again, just what you said. Don’t focus on the stuff you can’t have. Crowd it out with all the stuff that you can have, right?

And so, tons of vegetables, clean protein, healthy fats, you know, and then fruit, you know, so, it’s, like, some sort of carbohydrate source. But, again, vegetables are also carbohydrates. But tons of, like, eating the rainbow with kids. And that’s what I do in my own house in the morning, and snack, especially when the kids were home all day long as this last year, and even when they’re home on the weekends or after school, I lay an entire plate of tons of fruits and vegetables, in different colors. And that’s what they’re stacking on all day long. I only stock my fridge up with things that they can have. My pantry is filled with things that they can have, right? And that’s what you wanna crowd it out, so there’s nothing they can’t have in my house. And that decreases the stress for me, because now I know that they’re being nourished with those, with… For me, every ingredient, every spice, everything has a purpose, right, in the pantry. So, if they can have that autonomy, right, there’s less of that fighting that, “Oh, I want this. No, you can’t have this. You can’t have that. You can’t have this.” But now, they’re able to make those good decisions, because I’ve packed, stocked it up, but now they feel like, “Yes, I can have everything.” It’s more of like a yes mentality instead of a no mentality.

Then the next piece of that puzzle, obviously, is those toxins, your detoxification. Studies have actually shown that, you know, these pesticide exposures, these heavy metal, the endocrine systems, all of these are affecting our children’s brains and bodies, where they’re not able to tolerate the 85,000 chemicals they’re being exposed to on a daily basis. Like, I mean, just, for example, I mean, they’ve done, in 2016, they did a Canadian study that found that PFAS chemicals are more than 90% of the nearly 2,000 cord sample, blood samples collected in pregnant women. That’s craziness. And that then disrupts our hormones and immune systems, and decreases energy. It leads to liver damage and, you know, mental problems. I mean, there’s more and more science showing that all of these chemicals are really disrupting our children’s brains, bodies, and behaviors. So, really trying to lower the overall toxic load, that can help optimize your child’s brain and body, you know, all those toxins that are leading to this neurodevelopmental damage and disrupting the endocrine system. So, how are we gonna do that? Incorporating, again, foods that can help them detoxify their bodies, keeping their bodily fluids moving, and swapping out toxic things for clean things, you know, lowering the overall inflammation. I can optimize this.

And what’s really simple is, again, teaching your kids that, you know, just like we’re having them read labels for foods, having them read labels for shampoos, which is why I love your brand so much. But, you know, shampoos, and soaps and, you know, all of these things that they’re also putting on their bodies, and just educating them, you know, and not just… And then if they don’t know what something is, we just go look it up and, you know, really empowering them with that knowledge. And then my kids know that they need to make sure that they’re pooping, and peeing, and sweating on a daily basis, because how else is…? Or Epsom salt baths. They love to do, and, like, hot showers and cold showers, and then dry brushing. These are just part of their daily routines, getting out in nature, earthing, you know.

But that’s another piece. That’s the next piece, right? Stress. Oh my gosh, our kids are living in a world of chronic stress, lack of nature, lack of exercise, constant negativity, with our minds constantly going, the inability to sleep, all these negative relationships are really destroying our gut microbiome. And then studies have actually shown that this, you know, chronic stress is actually killing off the brain cells in the prefrontal cortex and making them grow in the amygdala. So, again, it’s super important. You know, even a 2020 Stanford studies, in Stanford University School of Medicine show that these chronically stressed and anxious children, their brains’ fear centers, from the right amygdala, send signals to the decision-making prefrontal cortex. That makes it harder to regulate negative emotions. So, our kids’ stress and their lack, the negativity, is disconnecting these pieces, which is then leading to this lack of empathy, impulsiveness, and poor decision-making.

So, how are we gonna fix that? Again, getting these kids that are chronically stressed to really focus on incorporating a stress management technique into their daily routine. You know, in the morning, for me, for us, you know, obviously the kids are getting their nature every morning, getting that early morning sunlight. They’re like, “Mama, we gotta go and ground.” Because we know that nature heals the body from the inside out. Nature has been shown to… You know, those people that are moving away from nature have increased risk of asthma, autoimmune diseases, you know, food allergies, lower activation of the prefrontal cortex. So getting them to spend time in nature. Right now, they’re all sort of still, some unfortunately, stuck indoors, incorporating that nature for a better mood, the ability to focus, the improving sleep, mindfulness.

And then mindfulness, right? Just what we talked about. Mindfulness calms the amygdala, and helps our children reconnect to our calm. And so, again, educating them about belly breathing, and all those things that can help regulate their heart rate variability, right? Like mindfulness, and meditation, and laughter, and belly breathing, all of these things are super, super powerful to incorporate into their daily routines. And for us, just, my kids have a routine that they know when they wake up, they meditate, they pray. They go out and they have their nature. So if we can… Just like with everything else, just like we do with sleep, right, we get kids in a sleep routine. And we all love routines. Science has proven that that’s really powerful. So that’s what I’ve done, again, with the kids, again, to making sure that their sleep, their social health, making sure every morning they are singing gratitude. Morning and night, we start our day off with gratitude. And that is super powerful, right?

And because science has then proven that gratitude and optimism, that strengthens the connection between the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex, so it’s like you’re getting out of on the right side of the bed every day. And then, making sure that they, you know, making sure, optimize their sleeping, because, again, we know sleep is super important for the brain. While a child sleeps, it cleans out the garbage. It, you know, strengthens connections in their brains. And then, the social. Really, love, and connection, that can be super, you know… Because kids need love to heal, period, right? And now, science has shown over and over and over that, you know, love, starting even from, at any age, can actually, you know, release oxytocin, that love hormone that can strengthen our children’s immune system, develops empathy for yourself and others, and then promotes essential strength and self-regulation in children. So powerful. So much stuff that are simple, right?

They’re easy, simple things that they can incorporate into your daily routine, that can then help them optimize their overall brains and bodies, and then your behavior. So, holistic parenting is all about that love, and the connection, and educating, and empowering your child and guiding them along the way, giving them the positive mindset, and that life skills to really navigate this crazy world. And so that’s what I, truly with every conversation that you have, every hug that you have, every bite that the children take, to their stresses, their sleep, their social, spiritual health, all of that has the power to mold the children’s brain for the better, no matter what age you start. That was a long answer. But wanted to give them… You know, these things are simple, but they’re so powerful.

Katie: Yeah, I love, to just call out some of the key points of I think of what you just said is, like, when our child is struggling with some of those things, it’s recognizing as a parent, they are having a problem, not being a problem, and how can we figure out and address what that problem is? And, to your point, like, there’s something so powerful… I’m a big fan also of the morning sunlight and the getting outside. It’s like, it’s funny to me that we need studies to show us this. But, like, humans, throughout history, have known the importance of nature. Now we have science to back up just how important that is. It’s also completely free to go outside and touch the earth and get sunlight. So, that’s a great easy, no matter what your budget, no matter what anything, you can go outside as a family in the morning. And it’s incredible to see the profound difference in that. And then, like, you said, addressing the core tenets of what’s going on with them, and not assuming that they’re just being problematic, but help them to better have a handle on their bodies, to better understand their emotions. And I view it as, for me, like, taking the responsibility of me as the parent, my job is to provide them with nutrient-dense food, just like you, keeping clean things in the house so there’s never guilt around food. I think guilt’s a very toxic emotion, especially around food.

Madiha: Never guilt around food. Yep.

Katie: Exactly. In fact, I had a great friend recently who, we were at a restaurant, and she was eating these cheesy bread things, but they were made from yucca. And somebody was like, “Well, you don’t have to feel too bad because they’re gluten-free.” And I loved her response, because she goes, “Oh, I never feel bad about food. If it doesn’t nourish my body, it nourishes my soul.” And I was like, how beautiful that she’s not attaching negative emotions to food, and how beautiful to model that in our children. Because at the end of the day, I view it as, like, my responsibility is to make sure they have constantly available, nutrient-dense options to help them understand and process physically what’s going on with their bodies, emotionally what’s going on, their stress.

And that’s exactly like you said, just have the nutrient-dense things available, so they’re always there. There’s never negative emotions around food, and also, too, when they have any emotional struggles, because certainly, that happens with little kids, as they learn to regulate. It happens with teenagers because hormones are real. But instead of judging that, saying, like, “You know, well, what is this feeling? And where is it in your body, and how can you get in touch with it? And what do you need? And how can I support you and love you the best through this?” Instead of like, “No, you shouldn’t be angry.” It changes the whole conversation and puts them back to circle around in that place of autonomy and understanding, because truly, these are skills they’re gonna need their whole life. We’re not always gonna be there to be like, “Oh, you need protein.” They have to learn that. So, how can we help them, early and often, learn that, so that they’re not on that roller coaster?

Because, like I just said, it’s not that they’re being a problem. They’re having a problem. So, how do we, as their parents, address that problem? And also, to your point, I think sleep is a huge key. I know we as moms feel that. We know what it feels like when you’re with a newborn who won’t sleep, like, hormones are a real thing, and sleep is the biggest factor that can mess with those. So, as a mom, a busy mom, and a doctor, what are some tips for sleep for our children, and also for ourselves? Because truly, it’s like the whole, if mom is well-rested and calm, the whole family seems to be calm. What are some ways we can improve that sleep variable?

Madiha: Absolutely. Wow. I think that, you know, we are in, virtually in this digital world, right, sleeping is becoming more and more of a problem, especially when all of us moms… I mean, let’s just be honest, that’s when we’re like, “Oh, we’ve put the kids to bed, and now, like, oh, let’s just scroll through social media.” And that turns to, like, hours and “Man, crap, I should have been sleeping during that time.” But, you know, the sleep is so super important, right? We talked about its benefits, but, unfortunately, specifically with our children, 6 in 10 middle schoolers and 7 in 10 high schoolers are not getting enough sleep. So, studies have shown that almost half of these children in the United States don’t get the recommended nine hours of sleep. Now, that’s craziness, right? So, what are we gonna do with these children? Again, that can become a struggle for parents.

Because sleep training, and I feel like since the beginning, we’ve sort of been taught that we control the kids’ schedules for sleep. Like, “This is what you need to do, this is the time you need to get it. We’re gonna be…” Just, all starting from sleep training, like, right? We were supposed to let them cry for hours, they need to do it on our time. No, that’s not the way. If you give your child the autonomy to make their schedule themselves, they know we know that they know that they need… Like, for example, my older children, like, my younger children, they know that they need 10 to 12 hours of sleep in order for their bodies to function appropriately, to making sure, you know, that they get those sleep and to find a schedule that will work for them, around that time, and then create that soothing routine for them, right? We all have a routine. We all know that the importance of routines for sleep, and making sure you cut out electronics a couple hours beforehand, making sure you decrease the blue light, all of those things, but have… One, role model it yourself. But then, heck, sit down with them and come up with that plan of action themselves.

And I find that is so powerful. And, again, when they start listening to their bodies, their bodies know exactly what they need, and they’re able to start to put themselves to bed. Like, my kids now, they know that this is their routine. They take their Epsom salt baths. Like, one of them likes to take Epsom salt baths during their time with lavender oils. And then they do that… Now they’re starting… My 10-year-old started doing that on his own, you know. But sort of role modeling it yourself, and then start to give them the autonomy that they need to then create those healing sleep schedules on their own. So powerful.

Katie: Yeah, it’s such a profound shift. It took me, I think, until my third to really internalize that lesson. And he was the one that, at two, would be like, “I’m tired. I’m going to bed now.” And even if it was, like, 6:00 at night. I’m like, “Perfect. You know your body.” And he would sleep, and he felt great the next day.

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And I think often, like, you’re right, we get attached to the schedule, or the rigidity, and we teach them to ignore their innate intelligence, when really, we can learn so much from them, and from their innate intelligence, and how amazing would it be if we, as moms, if we could, A, but if we did, B, actually go to sleep when we were tired.

Madiha: Yes! See, that’s what we need to do. So, role modeling those behaviors is really important, right? So, you have to start to create that routine for yourself. Obviously, if your routine is, you know, sitting in front of a, you know, your television, or sitting in front of your phone, then we can’t expect it from them. So, really trying to create that routine then, yourself, about all those things that really benefit you, and then making sure you prioritize your sleep, so then your children will do the same after role modeling that.

Katie: Absolutely. And I think also if you shift your perspective, I think you would agree with this, our children become our greatest teachers. My kids have taught me so much about the importance of play, and laughter, and not taking things too seriously, and about listening to our bodies. And obviously, I strive every day to make sure I’m teaching them as well. But I feel like, if you view that as a very, like, equal, symbiotic relationship, so many beautiful things happen. I think that also shifts how you relate to your children. And you talked about this some in your own work, I’d love to hear about it here, is how to, like, guide and, even maybe use the word discipline, although I think, like, I love the word “guide” better, but for good behavior, because I feel like when you shift that perspective, it becomes so much less of a fight, and so much more of a fun, educational journey together.

Madiha: Absolutely. Wow. The word discipline, I think, we have to understand that discipline does not mean punishment, right? It doesn’t mean punishment. So, discipline, on the other hand, comes from, like, a Latin root word, called, means “to teach.” So, and discipline is, like, a range of ways that you can parent, and interact, and teach your kids, so they understand what is really expected of them. And so, the child then will make good, thought-out decisions on their own. So, discipline is like a set of rules, and tools, and guidelines that really help a child set up, you know, basically getting a way for them, it helps to set up the child, for allowing their prefrontal cortex and their amygdala to work in unison. So, by explaining to a child what you expect from them, what happens is that, then, these two pieces start to work appropriately, because that way, they know what to expect, they understand real-life consequences, and if they don’t do what they’re doing.

So it’s like really, a thought-out plan that is not intended to hurt a child, but to really shape a child’s future. And real discipline doesn’t…you know, focuses on the misbehavior and not the child. And so, that’s when we have to start separating those things, right? And so, when it comes to, like, it’s really… You know, when it comes to disciplining our children, we have to understand that we need to first role model that good behavior for them. Because that connection, and the empathy that are key, that is super key to getting a good behavior that you’re looking for from your child. And if there’s misbehavior, then try to figure…and it’s important to find out why the child is sort of out of balance is what I’d like to say, right? But when the child gets that empathy and the comfort from a trusted adult, they’re able to use, like, self-calm and self-regulate their bodies and their brains. And that relationship is then really super critical for good behavior. So that’s super, again, important for disciplining your child, is making sure that you’re role modeling that for them.

And for me, and I know I’ve listened to lots of podcasts of yours, and you do the same thing, you treat them like adults. They have real-life consequences. I treat my children… I don’t do anything for them that they can’t do themselves. You know, but we need to give them enough credit. Talk to them, set these rules, sit down with them, and come up with, like, family rules. And, you know, setting… We love to do that, maybe every year, as the children grow, come up with different rules for your family that they’re sitting them and making them, you know, making them together, and then setting those consequences together. You know, and then, use choices and set real-life expectations. In my house, if the chores aren’t done, you know…in my house, it’s like work first before play. “I would like you to do the…” But they know that. They actually wake up in the morning, I know this is craziness, because of it, they chose this themselves, they made those rules themselves. Before I’ll even come down, I’ll be meditating upstairs, they’re downstairs already early in the morning. The dishes are done, Katie. The laundry is folded.

Like, I’m telling you, well, my seven-year-old… They all know their responsibilities. So, before they go to school in the morning, all of that is done. And then they’re able to, one is making their lunches. They know what they’re doing because they came up with those chores themselves. They came up with those rules themselves. And then, they’re like, “Oh, this is awesome.” So, really educating every child that every person is responsible for their own choices, and when faced with real life, you know, choices and consequences that they can deal with, you know, real-life consequences. Like, if they’re deciding to play and they’re not doing their homework, okay, you can deal with that life’s consequences.

I don’t even wake up my kids in the morning to go to school, because I want them to start to, again, learn those…treat them like adults. And it’s craziness. I’ve almost never had to wake up my 13-year-old. He’s up early in the morning, 6:00. He gets his chores done. He does his priorities. And then, if they have a podcast… They’ve also started a podcast, “The Holistic Kid Show” podcast, he’ll do their prep in the morning, too, with his brothers, if they wake up. And if they don’t, then they suffer the consequences. And that, I think, is super important. And then, appreciating good behavior, right? Sticker charts, point systems, even just words of not just, like, “Oh, you’re a good boy,” but instead of using words like that, you wanna be using words like, “Wow, that’s amazing. You’re such a big…you’re like…only big boys do that. That’s awesome.”

You know, but not, like, saying, “Your behavior is, like, bad or good.” And not constantly, but lots of attention to this good behavior actually leads to more good behavior. So, using words really carefully, like, because the harsher the words that you use, that activates the amygdala and leads to further disobedience. And then, when there’s a problem, you look for where your child could be out of balance. You know, not to look at it as this is bad, just like what you said at the beginning. And I think that’s what we do, is like, “Oh, you’re such a bad child.” No. They’re not a bad child. They’re just maybe an out-of-balance child. We just have to figure out, okay, are they lonely? You know, is there attention issues, nutrition issues? Maybe are they stressed? Is there a sleep issue? Gratitude? Do they feel isolated? Do they need more attention? Do we need to spend more time together? So, really remember to validate your child’s feelings, and then work together to find out, you know, where are they out of balance? What can I do? What can we do to help your body feel better, together, as a family?

And these symptoms and signs, they’re not bad. They’re not, like, trying to fight against these symptoms, just like with symptoms for, we do with, you know, if somebody has eczema, or allergies, these are not bad symptoms. This is your body talking to you. So, behavior is the same way. Behavior is your body talking to you. Your child’s behavior is their body talking to them, saying what it could be off-balance. And remember to just start slow, build over time, decide what battle is worth taking into consideration, the whole child, and then really focusing back on the foundations of the holistic parenting, you know, the digestive health, detoxification, stress, sleep, social, spiritual health, because that will then help them build healthy brains, bodies, and then better behavior. But again, working together as a family is key in discipline, and really validating, and treating them like adults.

Katie: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And creating a culture that helps them succeed, I love your point about praising and affirming the behavior, something that it’s within their control, versus them, because I know I got told I was smart as a kid, and then I got this fear of, like, don’t do anything that makes you appear…… Whereas if you say, like, “Oh, you worked so hard. I really admire how much you worked on this. That was such a creative solution. How did you think of that?” Like, it affirms those things that are within their control. I tell my kids, often the reversal of the Spider-Man quote, which instead of, “With great power comes great responsibility,” I tell them, “With great responsibility comes great power.” And my job as a mom is to give you all the freedom and autonomy and power that you’re gonna need as an adult, and as soon as you show me that you’re ready for it, I’m so ecstatic to give it to you.

And it’s like helping create that relationship through your family culture, like you said, being the role model, and showing them, is so much more powerful than telling them, and remembering, like, exactly like you said, if something’s going wrong, it’s they’re out of balance. They’re not being a problem. They’re having a problem. How can we help them solve it? And that puts you as a mom in a lower state of stress, and a much higher place of empathy, and they feel that, and it’s, like I often say to my kids, “Oh, well, what are you feeling right now? What is your emotion? And where do you feel that in your body? Like, what is it telling you? What can we learn from this?” And to put them in that place of curiosity over, like, “Oh, this is a bad emotion. This is a bad symptom.”

Madiha: No. Yeah, there’s no such thing as a bad emotion, bad symptom, right? And I feel like that’s so powerful, right, Katie, because as they get older, then, they’re not … Any symptom they have, because right now, it’s like cancer, oh my gosh, is terrible, terrible, terrible. You know, fight against this. We gotta fight against it. No. What is my body teaching me? Nothing is really bad or good. It’s just what can we learn from it? So, it’s super powerful, and I think that these lessons can be really then… You take a child out of that state of fear, and put them in a state of empowerment, and that is super important and powerful.

Katie: Absolutely. And just like expected, I knew our time would fly by here. So, this is why you’re on the medical review board, and I’m so grateful to have your ear. We’ll definitely have to have you on for more rounds three, four, five, six, seven. But quickly, let us know about your book and where people can find it. I think it’s an amazing tool for families.

Madiha: Thank you so much. Wow. So, I have… It’s called “The Holistic Rx for Kids: Parenting Healthy Brains and Bodies in a Changing World,” with your name right here. And so, Amazon, any bookstores, it’s available there. I also have a children’s book series that’s coming out simultaneously. It’s called “Adam’s Healing Adventures: The Power of Rainbow Foods.” And this is actually the second one in its series, where it’s basically a functional, integrative, holistic medicine book for children. And it’s really talking about the importance of all these different color foods. And so, both of them are coming out simultaneously, and can be found on Amazon, on my website, bookstores, so… So honored. So, thank you so much for having me. It’s been an incredibly… And by the way, I love being on your medical advisory board, so give me more work.

Katie: Oh, and I love…I feel like trend and the theme of this whole conversation has been, you know, empower and educate your kids. And so, side by side with empowering and educating moms, you made these kids’ books to help make the process of educating our kids easier. And speaking of books, a question I love to ask is if there’s a book or a number of books that have had a profound impact on you personally, and if so, what they are and why?

Madiha: You know what? It changed my… I’ve been studying parenting for years. And studying even… So this, there was one book that is called “The Science of Parenting,” by Margot Sunderland. I loved it. It really dove into the science, and exactly where the brain… Like, what you do as a parent, and what happens in the brain as a child’s doing, when you’re doing it. And then also, my other favorite thing is “Brain Wash,” by Dr. Perlmutter, because it really opens your eyes to what’s going on in the world today, that we have been, you know, just like what we’re doing with kids, where, you know, slapping bad behavior, and not recognizing that it’s our environments, our lifestyle that are really disconnecting our prefrontal cortex and our amygdala. So, therefore, we personally should not be taking response… We shouldn’t saying “bad person, bad this,” but it’s our environment that’s really impacting our decisions. And when we start shifting that blame from the person to our lifestyles, that now it shows, oh my god, there’s so much hope, that there’s so much in our lifestyle that we can actually change and heal and improve, and we can get our brain and body to work for us, not against us. And so, those are the two books that really have impacted me quite a bit.

Katie: I love those. Those will be in the show notes for you guys listening, wellnessmama.fm, along with Madiha’s book, her website. She has so many resources. Also, follow her on Instagram. She’s always posting all the rainbow foods that her family’s eating. Like I said, we’re gonna do more rounds of this for sure, and people see you on the website, on the medical review board. You are so amazing with that. Thank you for your work, for being such a light in the world, and for being here today.

Madiha: Thank you so much, Katie. I love all the work you’re doing. Love you.

Katie: Love you too. And thanks to all of you for listening, for sharing your most valuable assets, your time, energy, and attention with us today. I know that we’re both so grateful that you did, and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the “Wellness Mama Podcast.”

If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.

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Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.

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Katie: Hello, and welcome to “The Wellness Mama Podcast”. I’m Katie, from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. That’s wellness within an E on the end. And this episode is on a really cool new concept called umbrella parenting for raising children with strong coping skills. I’m here with Dr. Jen Forristal, who is a naturopathic doctor and the founder of the Umbrella Project, which is a well-being curriculum that is currently running in hundreds of schools internationally. And it’s designed to help empower children and their families to have the tools for emotional well-being, which is especially important right now. I’ve heard from a lot of you whose children are struggling just as many adults are with the effects of the last couple of years.

And Dr. Jen has worked extensively with schools, researchers, organizations to develop these mental wellness strategies. And we really go deep on some practical ones today. She gives some really, really, really helpful parenting tips and ways that we can work with our kids at different ages, phrase things at different ages to help them with the phase of psychological development that they are in, while also maintaining open lines of communication and building tools for coping, strength and resilience throughout their lifetime. I learned a lot, made a lot of notes at wellnessmama.fm. You guys can check those out. And without further ado, let’s join Dr. Jen. Jen, welcome. Thanks for being here.

Dr. Jen: Thank you so much for having me, Katie. This is exciting.

Katie: Oh, I’m excited to chat with you. And from the research I’ve done on you, even more excited. I think to start broad and kind of narrow down, I have so many questions for you. But to start broad, just kind of can you define what the Umbrella Project is?

Dr. Jen: Yeah, I would love to. So, I guess early on in my practice, I started working with families and kids quite a bit and realized that there wasn’t a really easy way to talk to kids and families about stress and coping skills at all really. I had a lot of eyes glazing over in my private practice, as you kind of delve into those topics. So, I realized we needed a really centralized way to explain how all these pieces fit together. And that’s where the Umbrella Project and the umbrella effect was really born.

So, the umbrella effect is the effect of having an umbrella of coping skills to help you deal with life’s challenges. And when we look at all of the coping skills, that’s really what they do. They kind of weave together things like gratitude, and empathy, and cognitive flexibility, and growth mindset, and purpose, all the different coping skills, provided another little piece of an umbrella, is what I like to call it, that help you feel empowered in the face of life’s rainy days. So, you know, when stress comes along our path, we’re not at the mercy of that. We can really tap into these different coping skills. So it became a metaphor that really launched a curriculum for schools. So we have hundreds of schools that run a curriculum that teaches this concept to kids and then all of the different coping skills that we can rely on. It’s become a way of parenting. I call it umbrella parenting because I think we need to redefine a little bit the fact that it’s okay to protect your kids from challenges. Umbrella parenting is really about knowing when to step in with your umbrella of protection and when to let your kids struggle a little bit so eventually they build their own umbrella. So it’s become a whole movement around building your umbrella of coping skills.

Katie: And, okay, so from there, I’d love to know more about, like, it seems like parenting is at least perceived as more difficult these days, whether I’m guessing it might actually be because there are a lot more factors to navigate. But I do think, like, my experience with parenting seems different and maybe more difficult than how my grandmother, for instance, talked about parenting. So, is that actually the case? And if so, why is parenting more difficult these days?

Dr. Jen: You know, I think there’s a lot of factors that roll into that. But one of the biggest ones, and I know you’ve talked about this with some of your great guests that you’ve had in the past, but I think the role that technology is playing in our kids’ lives right now is making it so that we are parenting into a space that we didn’t really experience in the same way that our kids are experiencing it. So, you know, the role of having a smartphone very early and connecting with your peers through that device is very complex in its nature and the way that we develop, our brains develop. So I think, as parents, first and foremost, we really don’t fully understand the dynamics of the relationships that our kids have and the role that technology really plays in that. And then, secondly, I just think the world is changing more and more and more quickly, exponentially quickly. And one of the skills as parents that I think we really need to be teaching our kids is adaptability and how to really quickly pivot in the face of things changing, right? And I think when we were raised, it was more, like, you know, you’re gonna become a doctor, and there’s a clear path in front of you. And, as a parent, I know how to coach you along that path. And there’s kind of checkpoints along the way. And it was, I think, a little easier. Now, when we’re trying to teach our kids to be adaptable, I know a lot of adults and a lot of parents who don’t have that skill themselves and haven’t had to really build it through challenge. So, it’s hard to transfer skills you don’t have.

Katie: So walk us through some of these coping skills that make up the umbrella. What are some of the others? I love that. I have a feeling we’re gonna be very synergistic on some of these core skills, but what are some of the others?

Dr. Jen: Yeah, so one of the ones that come up or really came up, obviously, during this pandemic is cognitive flexibility, the ability to flex and adapt and, you know, do something different in the face of different circumstances. So that’s one. There’s quite a few, growth mindset, you know, the ability to see yourself as not a static being but somebody who’s always growing and changing. There’s empathy and, you know, our ability to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes. There’s a sense of purpose. I find that to be really a big one that helps to guide us. You know, there’s so many different ones, gratitude, helping us see what we have instead of what we don’t have. There’s just so many different skills.

We actually have an assessment tool for parents and kids that you can walk through all the different skills and get a score for yourself of, you know, what are your strongest Umbrella Skills and what are the ones that you could work more deeply on. For me, autonomy, that’s another one. You know, the ability to have a really clear say in the direction of our lives, that’s one that I really feel like growing up I didn’t get a chance to build. I had a mom who loved to remove adversity from our path. I think that was something… She always… Her favorite expression was, “I wish I could do the Vulcan mind-meld on you.” I don’t know if you know what that is. It’s from “Star Trek,” but it’s basically where you transfer all of your knowledge into someone else’s brain so they don’t have to have those experiences, they just get the wisdom. And I think, well, that was wonderful. On one side, it prevented me from feeling really confident in my own direction and decision-making without a lot of other opinions. But we’re all kind of unique based on our experiences. And if you’ve never really looked at your own coping skills and thought about what was strong or weak, it’s amazing what actually comes up. And it was really hard to lean into that for me. That decision-making, I had to purposely force myself outside my comfort zone so many times to try to build that skill. But…

Katie: I’m curious what some of the things were that were helpful for that because I resonate with that. My parents were also similar in that regard. And I think, as a parent, that’s the thing we all have to figure out how to navigate because we, of course, want to…the instinct is to protect our children from pain or hardship or anything, but also realizing, like, I could look back easily and say, “Oh, well, I am who I am because of, in part, these difficult things that I went through. I still don’t want my kids to have to go through difficult things.” So, what did that process look like for you, and what are some ways as parents we can foster a healthy relationship there?

Dr. Jen: Yeah, I mean, I think the first one is just knowing your child’s skills and really understanding what all the Umbrella Skills are and then having a look at your child and determining where they might need a little bit of an extra push or a challenge because what ends up happening if you imagine your umbrella with some holes in it, we tend to huddle under the parts that are strong, right? So the grittier get grittier, and the empathetic get more empathetic. And we tend to rely really heavily… My sister is incredibly autonomous. And she just realized so strongly on that skill, but in the absence of some of the other ones, our protection is incomplete. You really do need all of them.

So, I think the first step is really having a good individualized look at yourself or your child, recognizing what skills might be missing, and then parenting specifically into those skills. So I always… One of the things that I think most parents do that really is difficult for them and their children is trying to do everything. I mean, you could be doing a gratitude journal in the morning and then a play day for empathy, and then you could be asking them to do all this stuff autonomously. And then you could be, you know… There’s a million, million things you can do for well-being. But if you don’t focus on the holes, eventually they start to come back and influence your ability to cope.

So, I always tell parents to pick one thing. You know, look at your child’s umbrella of coping skills and… And we have a parenting course and an assessment tool that you can actually do this and get some scores for yourself and your child. And then just pick one thing to work on, one individual skill, until you see that start to come through in your child, and then you can switch because I think the overachieving parent is almost equally as damaging for kids as, you know, neglecting these things. And when you try to do it all, it tends to just backfire as a parent.

So really just diving down and picking that one thing that your child really needs. I have a 13-year-old and a 10-year-old and a 1-year-old. And you know right now, for my 13-year-old, it’s definitely self-compassion. That’s another one of the Umbrella Skills I think as kids cross into their teens, one of the lowest skills by far is self-compassion. And they tend to be very hard on themselves. It’s like adding insult to injury every time something goes wrong. So, for me, that’s the skill I’m working on with my daughter, and that might just be a simple reminder or a simple question asking her, you know, “What would you tell your best friend in this situation?” and, you know, having them reflect on how they would treat someone else and then trying to give themselves that same kindness, but there’s all sorts of different ways within the Umbrella Project that we talk about building each skill. So…

Katie: And that’s a helpful thing, and that’s something I’ve done in therapy actually, is the therapist will walk you through, like, finding a childhood thing and then what would you tell yourself at that age or, like, how would you look at it from the outside or, like, view that situation differently. But bringing it up about teenagers makes me wonder…I would guess there are some skills or they’d become more relevant at certain ages. I know every child is so different, obviously, but are there on average some that tend to be more important at different age groups?

Dr. Jen: For sure, yeah. Not every skill… And, I mean, I have a lot of parents who come to see me with toddlers. And, you know, there’s some skills that just aren’t built in the younger ages. But I would say mindfulness is a big one for younger kids. And, you know, I actually had listened to you say something in one of your podcasts about kids having a lot of natural skills. And one of the roles of parenting is just getting out of the way and letting those skills actually blossom, right? And I think mindfulness is one of those skills where kids exist very much in the moment. And we tend to be the ones taking them constantly out of the moment and trying to get them to think ahead. So, mindfulness is a great skill for young kids.

And self-compassion comes up a ton in the teen years as there’s a healthy lifestyle. I think that as our kids start to get some of their own freedom, they no longer wanna listen to what we tell them they should be doing and putting in their bodies. And so, focusing on keeping those healthy lifestyle pieces, that’s another great one for adolescence. Trying to maintain mindfulness in adolescence, so I think that’s another big one if we can just keep our teens a little bit more in the moment and a little bit less thinking about what’s coming or what has happened. That also tends to really influence their happiness and well-being.

Katie: Yeah, and I love that you said that because I’ve always had the feeling that kids come out of the box with so many amazing skills and that often we train out some of the really important ones. So on, like, the education side, I see that often with, like, creativity or being willing to ask hard questions and ask why a lot. Like, that’s super important and something I prioritize in employees and in entrepreneurs, and yet so much of our existing model trains those things out of them. And even just things like the ability to play and, like you said, to be present in the moment. We can actually learn so many lessons from young children when it comes to those things. But at least the existing systems tend to make those things more difficult to maintain. So I love that you’re bringing awareness to that.

I think the autonomy in the teenage years is also a big one. And I’d love to, like, talk a little bit more specifically about ways that we as parents can help foster that in a healthy way because I now I have a couple of teenagers. And that’s something I think about often is that the goal is for them to be autonomous adults. And I’ve always kind of pictured that, you know, by 13 or 14, they’re mostly there. They’re still living in my house. They still have a safety net, but they’re psychologically supposed to separate from the family at some point. They are supposed to be autonomous. And so how can I give them the space to do that and also the skills to do that in a safe and responsible way? So any specific tips for that age? Because I know a lot of people listening also have teenagers.

Dr. Jen: Yeah, oh, gosh, there’s so, so much about that. One of my favorite expressions that we use in my house all the time is self-regulate or be regulated. And I think self-regulation in teens is what they all want, right? They wanna be able to make their own choices and their own decisions. And so I really do think of myself as a broad safety net, where, like, within the parameters of what I can, I’ll please self-regulate, I don’t wanna tell you what to eat or where to go or when to do your homework. I don’t wanna be involved in that. But I am there, and I will step in and regulate if needed, right? I will be your prefrontal cortex when you are going to make bad decisions, right? That’s my role, is to just be observing and stepping in when I need to. And I tell my kids that. And I think they like that, right? They wanna self-regulate. There’s a goal there, and they know that I’m there just as a safety net. So even just that expression alone really gives a lot of information to teenagers, right? It tells them, “I want you to do this on your own. I don’t want to tell you what to do. I’m only there, you know, to help you out if I see you’re gonna make poor decisions that are gonna have a really lasting impact on your well-being.”

Katie: Yeah, that’s such a valuable way to say it.

Dr. Jen: Yeah, I don’t know if you’ve seen much about what’s been happening with the pandemic and what’s been happening with autonomy and that piece with teenagers because, really, that is such an important stage they’re supposed to be drifting and pulling away from parents, but because of having to really isolate with parents quite a bit in the last year or two, there’s been a huge toll on teen mental health, specifically in that grade 7 to 10 range where that’s really what they’re supposed to be doing, and now they’re stuck with us. In fact, my daughter has said, “I wish she would stop planning family things. Don’t you know, like, we have enough family time. I need to do something without you.” I was like, “Okay, I get it. Like, that makes perfect sense to me. I know I love you. And also, yes, please go do something without me.” So, I think recognizing that autonomy is a big piece of that developmental age and that something has happened in the last year or two to teens’ autonomy and that now most of them are very anxious about going back out into the world. Unlike young kids or some of the older kids that we see, specifically that teen demographic is not necessarily running back out open-armed into the world. They’re now very anxious about what it’s gonna look like to reengage. So I think autonomy is a great skill to start to focus on for our teens, for sure.

Katie: A phrase I like to use at my house is I reverse the spider man saying, so instead of, “With great power comes great responsibility,” I tell them “With great responsibility comes great power.” Like, I want you to be autonomous. And if you show me that you’re responsible, I have no reason to get in the way of that, and you have then great freedom and power. I think the other kind of flip side of this too is not taking it personally when teenagers start separating, which is, of course, easier said than done because, you know, we made them, and we grew them, and we’ve taken care of them since they were babies. And I always, like, logically knew that. And now I’m getting to experience the emotional side of, like, “Okay, my 15-year-old thinks that everything I say is wrong and is supposed to be separating and doesn’t wanna spend tons of time with the family and his friends are very important to him right now. And that has nothing to do with me being a bad mom. That has everything to do with the psychology of him being a teenager. And so how do I best support him in that?” versus, like, internalizing, like, “Oh, well, he doesn’t like me anymore. And I think that, like, it’s an important reframe for parents and those teenagers because it is a little tough, I feel, like, personally, when they start separating like that.

Dr. Jen: Oh, my gosh, it’s so hard. I remember…because my daughter’s 13, I remember last year listening to a podcast, and the podcast host was saying that you can’t avoid the teen separation. You know, you can’t avoid that piece. And I was thinking to myself, “I don’t know. I think my daughter’s pretty, pretty good. I think we’re gonna maintain this good relationship.” And then a year later, of course, I’m in the throes of, you know, that piece too. So, really, I love what you said about recognizing that it’s normal and not taking it personally, I think. And even having that explicit conversation with your kids, like, “It’s okay to want your own time and space. It’s okay that you don’t wanna hang out with me right now,” takes a lot of the guilt out of that for them and allows them a little freedom to just be who they are and not feel like they need to be taking care of your well-being too. So, yeah, I think that’s a great tip.

Katie: And then on the flip side of that is any tips for keeping communication open in a healthy way during that time? Because I know my parents were great about saying, like, you know, “You can talk to us about anything. And if there’s ever anything hard, like, we are here to listen. And, you know, you’ll never get in trouble for being open and honest.” And, frankly, as a teenager, I believed that exactly zero. Like, I was, like, “I’m not gonna talk to you when I do something you told me I’m not supposed to do. Like, there’s no way.” So I mean, the autonomy piece makes a lot of sense. And I think respecting that probably goes a long way toward keeping communication open, but also any tips for helping them actually feel and believe that they have a safety net when they need it?

Dr. Jen: Yeah, well, I think, like, two things come to mind with that. One is that as parents, and most parents are actually kind of poor at this, is that actions need to match words. So if you say, “It’s okay, you can come to me, and you’re not gonna get in trouble,” you do need to make sure that you follow through on that, right? And you can maybe do that by helping them reflect on how they might resolve the problem or whatever they’ve done instead of giving them a consequence. You might ask them what they think, you know, I said, “I wasn’t gonna get you in trouble for this. And I’m not, but I do think what you did is wrong or hurt someone or put you at risk. And what do you think a good way to make up for this is or to…?” You know, that’s a great way to get them involved but also have your actions match your words when it comes to that.

And then the other thing that I started with my kids when they were quite young actually is I told them, “I will always be your fact check.” I remember a couple of times growing up when I didn’t know what was real and what wasn’t. You know, you hear a lot on the playground. And sometimes it gets you into trouble when you don’t know what’s true and what’s not true. So I told them, “Anything you hear, you can always come and tell me, and I will tell you if it’s true or not.” And a funny story about that. So, with one of my kids… I won’t mention who in case they ever listen to this podcast which one. I said, “Okay, I’ll be your fact check, and you get to ask me anything.” And one of my children said, “Okay, I heard about this thing called sex.” And I was like, “Okay, what did you hear?” And they said, “I heard it could last anywhere from two minutes to a couple of hours.” I was like, “That is the first thing you want me to fact check?” I was like, “True.” Like, okay, well, you know what, at least I know what kind of information needs filtering back, but I feel like, from those experiences, I now have a very open dialogue with my kids where they really do bring a lot of sometimes shocking-for-me topics back that they’re hearing about or that their friends are talking about. And it really has served to keep the dialogue open and safe, I think, for them when I’m not there to provide advice. I’m just their backup fact check so that they can, you know, know what’s accurate and what’s not.

Katie: I love that tip. I’m making notes. That’s a great one. And then, yeah, they can trust you and know that you can help them research something. That’s amazing. You also have something called a well-being pop-up. Can you explain what that is and how it works?

Dr. Jen: Yeah. So, this is something actually we’ve been reflecting on at the Umbrella Project that we’re putting in place for schools because I think school’s really an education. It’s easy for well-being to become kind of in the background. And as much as schools know that without all of your coping skills, good luck doing any of the other subjects. I mean, they’re literally like your core muscles that stabilize you when you’re going to do anything else. Still, it always takes a backburner. So, we’ve started to develop conferences for schools, and we call them pop-ups. And they’re just one-day conferences that schools can run to really focus on wellbeing and to tell students, especially coming back this September, after the last year and a half, that their well-being is front of mind and priority. So we’re pretty excited about bringing this to schools.

This September, we’re focusing on the grade 7 to 10 cohort because it’s just so in need right now. Those kids are really struggling. And I actually would say if you have a grade 7 to 10 or even, you know, around that age student at home, check in with them and see how they’re doing because they’re also at an age of a child that’s not always gonna talk to you about what’s going on, right? So, you reaching out and asking them like, “How are you feeling?” You know, I remember a patient of mine saying that she thought her daughter was doing great and said, “Oh, my gosh, thank goodness we’re through that lockdown, and I’m so glad you did so well.” And she said, “I cried myself to sleep every night for the last couple of months.” And so just, you know, really checking in with them is important. And then we’re just really excited to be able to provide that for education. I know education’s one of your passions too. So, you know, starting to help schools really show students that this is the most important thing for them that their health and mental health and well-being is front, front of mind.

Katie: I love that. I’m gonna make sure all these things are linked in the show notes so people can find them. I think having tangible tools, especially as you mentioned right now, while we’re still navigating totally new circumstances and the way all ages of children are gonna cope with that, it’s so important.

Dr. Jen: Good advice there.

Katie: We were really fortunate in that we already homeschooled, and we were in a very tight-knit community. So our daily lives didn’t change at all other than, when activities shut down, I just hired the teachers directly. So now they come to our house to do gymnastics and all the different stuff. So, actually, for us, it was a really positive experience.

Dr. Jen: Awesome. That was another piece of research that came out during the pandemic actually, was the influence of losing extracurricular activities on academics for students because what they found is that all of the skills, like, having a sense of purpose and growth mindset, all the things that you’d get from extracurriculars, those coping skills transfer to academics. And when students don’t have something outside of school that they’re passionate about, their academics suffer significantly, too. I thought that was so interesting. And, yeah, I mean, I’m a research kind of geek. I love all the different pieces of research. But I thought that one was particularly interesting for impacts that, you know, losing extracurriculars or even having them has on your child’s academics.

Katie: Yeah, and, hopefully, that will all continue to get better and better as time goes on.

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And as we talked about, look, before we move on from the teenage years, I mentioned, in therapy, that’s the thing that often comes up, is, like, they’ll have you process something earlier in life and then ask what you would say to yourself at that age. So I’m curious, what would you tell your teenage self?

Dr. Jen: Oh, I think, like, one of the biggest things I think that I wish I knew back then is that it’s important to be kinder to yourself. I think a big piece of why teens are even so hard on each other is because they’re so hard on themselves, right, and tends to become just a hierarchy of who feels better than who, and teens tend to do that by putting others below them instead of trying to elevate themselves. I think a little bit of self-kindness would have gone such a long way for me as a teenager, for sure. So I think that’s one of the things that really stands out to me that I wish I knew when I was younger.

And then that everyone struggles. I remember I had a lot of, you know, internal family struggles going on when I was growing up. And after I became an adult, I realized that a lot of my other friends did too. And we just didn’t really talk about it, right? We kind of kept that a secret within each of our families. And I wish I knew then that they were struggling in the same way that I was or recognize that that wasn’t something I was doing alone, and that sense of common humanity is such a well-being protector and one that we talk about all the time with the Umbrella Project and just the idea that life rains for everyone and that, you know, that rain is even important for developing coping skills. I mean, coping skills are skills, right? They need practice, and you need that adversity to really develop any of the skills to be very strong, but I wish I knew more that other people were struggling too back then.

Katie: And, like, in so many areas of life, when you’re able to talk about it, it often removes some of the struggle. And I love that you used the analogy of rain because I think that’s a perfect way to think of this is often, at least speaking personally, like, we have an emotion like sadness. And then we attach a connotation to it, like sadness is bad. But, like, I think I’ve gotten notes from you. Like, these things are all inevitable. We will inevitably have rainy days. We will inevitably go through things that are difficult by some metric, but we have the choice of interpreting them as bad or painful. Yeah, we have the ability to frame our own experience within that and in the context of this conversation to help our kids learn that from a very early age. And so rather than… I feel like that’s one thing I’ve learned the last few years, is any emotion we resist actually tends to grow. So, trying to, like, help my kids learn to feel an emotion and not resist it or judge it as bad necessarily, but be able to feel it, process it, learn from it, and when it’s time, also let go of it.

I feel like that question brings me to the earlier childhood time because I feel like younger kids tend to have bigger emotional spikes or at least more likely just their output is more…there’s more volume to their output. Probably older kids still have the intensity of experience but have learned to kind of shut down the response of it. So, what are some ways that we can help kids navigate not shutting down their emotions, not defining, for instance, feeling anger as a bad thing or feeling sadness as a bad thing but also processing it in a way that is, you know, like, socially acceptable in target?

Dr. Jen: Yeah. You know, one conversation that I… I love conversations with kids. I feel like our lives are a dialogue, and a lot comes from conversation, even maybe not in the moment but when you reflect back later. So, one conversation I love to have with kids and I recommend every parent has is just asking them, like, “What makes you angry? What makes you jealous? What makes you sad?” Go through, you know, different times, different feelings, and then share some things that make you feel like that, too. I remember a great conversation I had with my daughter about, you know, “Do you ever feel jealous? What makes you feel like that?” And then her asking me the same question and us sharing some things that make us feel that way. Because when they can see that you’re with them at their level, right, that jealousy is not a bad emotion, it’s a normal emotion, and that it’s what you do with it, right? But first and foremost, in young kids, it needs to be okay to feel all the feelings.

And, you know, while we might say it’s okay to feel sad or angry, sometimes there’s other ones like jealous or, right, we tend to say that’s not okay, right? You shouldn’t be jealous. Look how much you have or whatever the thing is, and instead of just really having a conversation about, “That’s when I feel that way.” And that’s it, right? It doesn’t have to be a lesson, nothing. It doesn’t have to be a moral, just we’re all in this together. We all feel everything. So I like that for a start with kids. And then one of the other questions that I really like with kids is just asking them regularly, “What does it mean?” Like, you know, if they’re upset, if they bring home a bad mark from school, for example, or if they don’t do well on something, or if a friend’s unkind to them, ask them, “What does it mean to you when that happens? What do you think it means when a friend is unkind to you?” And then you can start to hear their narrative, right? Because we don’t need to jump in and fix or change feelings or experiences.

But it is really important as parents that we hear what our kids’ narrative is becoming because I love the expression, “You aren’t what happens to you in life. You’re the story you tell yourself about what those things mean,” right? We are only… We are meaning makers. And so, if to your child when a friend is mean, it means, you know, maybe they’re having a bad day or maybe everybody feels mean sometimes, and, you know, maybe tomorrow, they’ll be feeling better. Maybe that’s not a narrative we need to really intervene with, or, you know, it’s okay to feel sad when that happens.

But if the meaning that they’re making from that is, like, “Maybe I’m not a good person. Maybe people don’t like me. Maybe…” you know, then those are the narratives that I think we need to dig deeper into with our kids and, you know, acknowledge their sadness and also help them at the other side of that, try to think of some other meanings that they could take from that. So, as your child grows and develops, if you can hear their narrative, I think that’s probably the most powerful thing you can do as a parent, is try to really hear the meaning that your child is taking and, you know, help them shift it into something that is self-serving and powerful for them.

Katie: I really like that tip of asking them, “What does that mean?” Because that does shift it as well. And I think it also helps protect against that parental instinct to try to fix it for them, like we talked about in the very beginning, and/or projecting any of our own discomfort with them feeling that emotion. I think they should be allowed to feel it. And also not defining it for them. I feel like that’s an easy loop to fall into as a parent, is to ask them if they’re feeling sadness or, “Oh, are you feeling…?” But instead of doing that, giving them the space to say what they’re feeling and what it means. And I’ve definitely made a note to use that with my younger ones.

Dr. Jen: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a great question. I’ve learned so much about my kids. And I would say… And, I mean, I do this for a living, and I’d say I’m probably 50/50 with guessing what the meaning, you know, from looking at my kids what I think they’re taking from an experience and what they actually are.

Katie: Yeah, and I wonder if… Because if we project wrong and think like, “Oh, are you feeling sad?” and they’re not, then it might be harder for them to speak up and say they’re not, and/or they may internalize, “Oh, I’m supposed to feel sad now.”

Dr. Jen: It’s confusing when your parents try to talk you out of your feelings, right? Because it does actually… The question is, okay, are my feelings wrong, or do they just not get me or…right? And that comes back to those teen years, is kids will talk…

Katie: Am I weird or…?

Dr. Jen: Yeah, kids will talk to you if they think you understand what they’re going through. And if you don’t, they’ll go to their peers. And, I mean, I certainly… I love my friends or my kids’ friends, but I don’t know that I want them to be, you know, the person that my kids are always going to for answers when they need something. So, yeah, keeping that dialogue or that openness with not presuming you know what their experience is is really helpful.

Katie: So, you mentioned, of course, your book, and you mentioned courses as well. I’m gonna make sure I put links to all of these in the show notes. But where can people start really delving into this and springboard to use this in their own families?

Dr. Jen: Yeah. So our website is probably the best spot to find a lot of centralized information. It’s umbrellaproject.co. And there we have a blog with all sorts of parenting tips that are skill-based. We have links to our parenting courses. We have links to the curriculum and to our pop-up in the different programs that we have for education. So we have all sorts of information there to get you started. Our Parenting 101 course is a great spot if you want to assess your child’s coping skills and your own and get a really good foundation in what the parenting dos and don’ts are depending on your individual child. Something we’ve really tried to focus on is, like, if you could just do two or three things for this type of child or this skill that you’re trying to build, what would those be? So that’s a great starting point for parents, for sure.

Katie: I love that. Another question I love to ask for the end of interviews is if there’s a book or a number of books that have had a profound impact on your life, and if so, what they are and why?

Dr. Jen: Gosh, there’s… I am such a reader. I love reading. So that’s a really hard question. But one that stands out to me is “Piece Is Every Step.” Have you read that by Thich Nhat Hanh? It’s a mindfulness book. And I would say, for me, mindfulness was probably the skill that I put into my umbrella first as a grownup that changed everything about the rest of my life because mindfulness is really the skill that helps you pay attention to how you’re feeling in the moment and why. So, when I started to build that skill, it really allowed me to see all the other gaps that existed in my coping skills and where I needed to focus my attention. And that book was really the starting point of all of it. This is a great read if you wanna delve into mindfulness a little bit.

Katie: I’m definitely gonna order that now. That sounds like a great one. It’s a new recommendation here. And also that’s been a recurring theme for me recently, is the importance of mindfulness and meditation. It’s one of those things I’ve certainly seen the research on it, I’m now learning the application of after probably many years of putting it off. So, I love that you brought that up. I’ll make sure that’s linked, as well. Any parting advice that you wanna leave, especially with parents that are listening today?

Dr. Jen: Let’s see. I kind of think of what we haven’t talked about yet. I think embracing imperfection in yourself and your kids. You know, imperfection is really what connects us as humans. When you think about that person you perceive as perfect or who has it all together, there often isn’t a lot of connection in that. Where people really connect is in that sense of common humanity in our imperfections. But, for some reason, we all think we need to be perfect parents and we need to have perfect kids. And if you can really embrace mistakes and imperfection as chances to grow and connect and be vulnerable with each other, I think that is my advice to all parents, just it’s okay to be just who you are, you know, a person slowly continuing to grow and change, and it’s okay for your kids to be that too. It’s what makes us…it’s what brings us together.

Katie: I love that. I think that’s a perfect place to wrap up. I’m excited to read your book. I’m excited to keep learning from you. And thank you for your time today. This was awesome.

Dr. Jen: Thank you so much for having me, Katie. This was great.

Katie: And thanks as always to you guys for listening and sharing your most valuable resources with us, your time, and energy, and attention. We’re both so grateful that you did, and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the “Wellness Mama Podcast.”

If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.

This article was originally published by wellnessmama.com. Read the original article here.

This article was originally published by mindbodygreen.com. Read the original article here.

Child therapists Ashley Graber and Maria Evans want parents to know that burnout from parenting—in
any
circumstance, but especially right now—is universal. And after more than a year of navigating extreme unknowns and
school closures, it’s also to be expected that burnout won’t evaporate the moment your children transition back to
in-person school.

We asked Graber and Evans to share the tools they use in their practice to help parents address
burnout—and what steps to take to prevent burnout from building back up again.

This article was originally published by goop.com. Read the original article here.

Child: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.

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Katie: Hello, and welcome to the “Wellness Mama” podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. That’s Wellnesse with an E on the end. And today’s guest is a much-requested second round with Amy McCready, who is the founder of Positive Parenting Solutions and the creator of The 7-Step Parenting Success System. She is the author of two best-selling books, “If I Have to Tell You One More Time” and “The Me, Me, Me Epidemic.” She has been featured as a parenting expert on everything from “The Today Show” to CNN, MSNBC, Rachael Ray, etc. And her course is one of the more impactful courses I’ve ever taken. It’s been very helpful to me with my kids.

And in this episode, we go deeper on parenting topics we covered a lot in our first episode, which will be linked in the show notes at wellnessmama.fm. But this one really touches on the school side. I have heard from a lot of people who are struggling with virtual schooling, homeschooling, or all the alternative methods of schooling that are happening right now. And so, in this, we go into tangible ways to navigate that with the least amount of stress for you, for your kids, and how to give your kids confidence, and clarity, and help them navigate these times as well. As always, it’s a complete joy to talk to Amy and I know that you will get a lot from this episode. So without further ado, let’s jump in. Amy, welcome back.

Amy: Katie, thanks so much for having me again.

Katie: I am excited to chat with you. Your first interview was so well-received, people loved you and had a few follow-up questions. But I realized as this intensity of this last year has seemed to continue now into this year, so many parents are still struggling with the stress of new types of models of school and all the various things that come with that for their kids. And I know I’ve heard from so many of my listeners and readers who are new to homeschooling, whether by choice or not just through virtual school this year, and with schools closed, the last statistic I saw said that nearly three-quarters of parents said that managing distance, virtual, and online schooling for their kids is a significant source of stress. So this is definitely top of mind for a lot of parents. And I know that you have a resource specific to this, and I’m excited to have you on and really start to give parents some practical, tangible solutions today.

Amy: Yes, probably with the parents that I work with, I think it’s the number one stressor right now as if parenting isn’t already stressful enough. And I think, you know, some parents are doing beautifully with it and have, you know, really set into a groove, and others, even though we’ve been at this for quite a while, are still really struggling. So, my hope today is that we can give parents some really tangible strategies that they can use to just feel better about everything and be able to have their kids do their work without a lot of power struggles. And so, everybody’s just feeling a lot more at peace with the situation that we have found ourselves in.

Katie: Absolutely. Okay. So I think there’s gonna be a variety of different kinds of situations and approaches we’ll need to delve into since there seem to be a lot of different various ways that families are handling school right now. Our family’s homeschooled for years. So there wasn’t a tremendous adjustment for us due to this past year. But I’ve heard from so many of my friends and readers, like I said, who are navigating this for the first time, and it seems like there’s almost a spectrum, people who have jumped full into homeschooling for the first time, which brings its own different dynamic to introduce to parenting. But the more common one seems to be some type of hybrid of virtual learning and part-time in school at least or virtual learning but being taught by the teachers at school. And it seems like a lot of the stress in this comes from things like trying to still keep kids on a schedule and get them to get their homework done when they’re just home all the time. And you are still, kind of…you’re the parent but you’re also, kind of, halfway the teacher as well. So just starting broad, any tips for navigating the overall dynamic of that, since it’s so new for many people?

Amy: Yes. So, whether you are full-on homeschooling or doing that virtual model, one of the first things that I always like to talk with parents about is just mindset, in general. And, you know, kids pick up so much from our cues. And if we’re visibly stressed about the situation, if we talk about it and, you know, we complain about it or, you know, we send the message that this whole virtual schooling thing is a joke, they totally pick up on that. So, the first thing that I always want parents to do is, like, really get your mindset right about this whole process, whatever your situation is, and not feel like it’s being done to you. You know, this is just something that we’re all dealing with and our family handles this with grace and resilience. And we are gonna roll in just the most positive way.

And so, I know parents feel a lot of anxiety and sometimes grievance and big frustration about the whole, you know, schooling situation, whether they’re hybrid or completely virtual. But we don’t wanna send those messages to our kids. Save those conversations for your partner, your friend, but never when your kids are within earshot. So, I think that whole mindset thing is really important. And then the other thing that I really like to focus in on is just the whole routine thing, just what you said. I think the parents that I’ve seen who are really managing this successfully are the ones that have the really good routines in place. And you know that, Katie, from homeschooling all these years, you have to…If we’re just, kind of, winging it day by day, we’re gonna really stumble. So just having those routines in place is really important. And we can obviously talk more specifically about that.

Katie: Absolutely. Definitely wanna go deeper on routines. And I think also may be part of that dynamic that makes it so difficult for parents to figure out how to navigate is when kids are in school, obviously, the teachers are driving forward the schedule of the school and the lesson plan, and at home, parents then become fully responsible for making sure kids are accountable in school as well. So I think you’re right. Routine is probably a tremendous part of that. But when it comes to navigating that dynamic, I would guess it vary somewhat by age. But I wonder how much of that responsibility should be on the child versus on the parent. It seems like at least some of the dynamics I’ve seen, parents are taking on a lot of ownership of that when perhaps maybe, especially with older kids, that’s something that the kids could take more ownership for, without the parent having to take on and drive that. And I know this is something you and I touched on in our first episode together of that natural balance of when kids can…like, letting them be more independent and letting them take more ownership for their contributions to the family. Is there an element of that as well?

Amy: Absolutely. And you exactly went down the path that I was thinking. You said parents are not fully responsible. And that’s part of the problem. Parents should not be fully responsible. Little kids are gonna need a little bit more oversight. But, you know, as kids get a little bit older, they need to be responsible for that. So, I think a big part of this is…and again, this comes with a routine and the expectation is establishing that you are responsible for your schoolwork. I’m here to be the guide, I’m here to set up the routine so that it functions in a helpful and positive way. I’m here to assist when you need it but I’m not the reminder, I’m not the one who’s gonna be, you know, sort of, taking you through your schedule, you know, hour by hour. That’s your responsibility. And I think that’s, kind of, the first thing that we have to talk about. And I think parents feel a lot of pressure because they don’t wanna look bad. They don’t want the teacher to think they’re a total slacker. So we end up doing a lot of reminding and coaxing, and it becomes our problem versus the child’s problem.

So, one of the questions that I often get is, you know, my child just refuses to do the work or my child refuses to show up for the Zoom class. All right, so how are we gonna handle that? We can threaten, and coax, and remind, and do all of those things or we can put the responsibility where it belongs on the child’s shoulders and say something like, “Okay, if you’ve made the decision to not turn in this assignment or you’ve made the decision to not show up for your 10:00 class, what is your plan for letting the teacher know your decision?” And stop right there. So, the almost natural consequence that plays out is that that child needs to get in touch with a teacher and have that conversation about why they’re not turning in the assignments or why they’re not showing up for class. Now, you as a proactive parent would wanna get in touch with the teacher ahead of time and let he or she know that we’re working on some training and some independence work.

And so, if obviously, if he or she could support you in that, that would be great. But that what is your plan for a tool is absolutely key. That puts the responsibility where it belongs and gets you out of the bad guy situation. And I am telling you, Katie, 9 times out of 10, when the child faces the thought of having to call the teacher or, you know, get on a Zoom call with the teacher offline and explain why they’re not doing their assignment totally changes the dynamic.

Katie: That’s a great point. And I think that’s applicable to any school dynamic, truly, even if kids are back in school and this is just a homework dynamic. It seems like there’s been a really tangible shift in who feels like they’re responsible for this dynamic in the last few decades. Or maybe I’m aging myself, but certainly for me, when I was in high school, that was something that I was very clear on was 100% my responsibility and my parents were not going to remind me to do my homework or swoop in and save me if I forgot to do my homework. And I hear from teachers as well that parents seem to be much more involved than they used to be in homework. And I know we talked in our first episode about parents being more involved in a lot of areas than we used to be, potentially not letting kids have as much independence as they psychologically need at different stages. But are you seeing this play out as well? And any tips for parents, even if it’s just in homework, for learning to let that go and let kids be responsible?

Amy: Absolutely, yes. We’re seeing it in so many aspects of parenting. And we may have talked about this before. But again, we have to remember our job. We are playing the long game of parenting. So, our job is taking these people who are completely dependent on us and moving them to a point where they are completely independent, right? They’re completely self-sufficient functioning young adults. And that’s never gonna happen if we continue assuming responsibility. So, let’s talk about the homework example. And I’d like to give parents a tool that they can use whether their kids are homeschooled, hybrid, or going to school. And that’s the homework help policy or the schoolwork help policy because some kids want you to sit beside them, you know, while they’re in their Zoom class and, you know, sit beside them at the kitchen table, but we’re not gonna do that.

So the homework help policy says that I have complete faith and confidence that you can complete your assignments on your own. Now, if you do need help, what I want you to do is go ahead and complete everything that you know how to do on your own. All right. Then, for the questions that you can’t figure out on your own, explain to me your thought process. So, tell me how you’ve tried to figure it out, where you stumbled, and then I can help you with those specific things. And by the way, my homework help hours are these specific times. So, if you’re home working while your kids are schooling at home, you might have several blocks of time throughout the day. Maybe it’s, you know, mid-morning or after lunch or right before the end of the day where they can come to you…basically, it’s office hours where they can come to you and get help for those specific things. But the important thing is they’ve completed everything they can on their own and they can explain their thought process for those things that they couldn’t figure out.

So, again, that takes the responsibility off of your shoulders and puts it on theirs. And that can be used, again, whether you’re homeschooling or your kids are going to school. And that is so liberating for parents because they’re like, “Oh, I don’t have to sit beside this kid and, you know, work through this math worksheet because very often, that helplessness is very attention-seeking,” right, or, “I want mom to be at my beck and call anytime I want her.” So it might be power seeking. So, when we use the homework help policy, it takes it out of that attention and power seeking realm. And then we just get to the issue of, okay, where is this child really struggling? And, of course, I’m happy to assist with anything that they’re having a hard time figuring out once they’ve put the effort in first.

Katie: And I love your focus of, you know, playing the long game of parenting and keeping that in mind because I think that helps really reframe that we’re trying to raise adults and we are not always going to be there to be their safety net. And so, in the ways…and your positive parenting course, as well, all the ways that you tangibly hand that off, but making sure that they have the tools they need to be able to accomplish these things. And also, I think a big key here is also letting them have the opportunity to fail and take ownership for their failure sometimes. I also love your line about explain to me your thought process. Just I’m very big on mental models. And that’s how I think through a lot of things in my own life. And I have systems for that. And one of my favorite people to read and research is Richard Feynman, who was a physicist. And one of his quotes was that, “If you can teach something to someone, you understand it much better.”

And so I love that you have them explain it because that then also lets them get the benefit of having to talk it through and, sort of, almost teach it to you. And also then, to your point, let’s them have…to have put the effort in to try first and then probably really shortens the amount of time that both of you are spending trying to solve that problem because they’ve already done a lot of that legwork themselves. And it does seem like kids also have a lot more homework and schoolwork that they’re responsible for at home than they used to. I had a decent amount when I was younger but it seems like even at young ages, kids are coming home with a whole lot of homework, which is its own, I think, thing that probably should be addressed. But I think that…like, are we seeing the amount of homework go up, do you think, in what you’re seeing?

Amy: I do. Yes. You know, when I hear that, you know, kindergarteners are coming home with worksheets, and first and second graders have an hour of homework, that feels excessive to me. But yeah, I do think that it is getting a little bit too much. And, of course, you know that time that they’re spending on homework at home is time that they’re not out playing or reading or, you know, doing other things that are enriching.

I also wanted to touch on something that you said that I don’t wanna lose track of. I can’t remember how you set up it about contributing at home. And that is a big part of this whole schooling at home success model. Because when everybody is at home, whether it’s, you know, five days a week or some hybrid model, what tends to happen is that the parent is saddled with more of the, like, home responsibilities because the kids are home for lunch and we’re cleaning up all the time. And it just feels like there’s so much on mom and dad. So a really important piece of the moving from dependence to independence and having a successful school at home model is shifting some of the responsibility for the home-based jobs to your kids.

And so, one of the big tools that I really encourage parents to take on right now is a tool called Take Time for Training. And that is basically identifying those tasks where your kids could contribute at home. So, little kids can do simple things like folding washcloths or matching up socks or, you know, just really, really simple things. They can help in the kitchen by tearing lettuce and chopping up cucumbers with a plastic knife. Obviously, older kids can contribute in more meaningful ways. They can vacuum. They can do laundry. They can help prepare simple meals. But at every age, we want our kids to be contributing. And I think that’s an area where we really have to push this now that everybody is at home, but like for all of our listeners, to really just make a list of, you know, almost like columns for each of your kids and then write down what are some specific tasks that your kids can do that with a little bit of training, they could contribute to your family, and then take time for training so your kids can master those tasks and then turn over the responsibility to them.

And that just becomes part of their daily routine, just like showing up for, you know, 8:00 Zoom class, part of their responsibility is doing their family contributions. And you know, Katie, we call them family contributions, not chores because chores denotes drudgery and family contributions reinforces the message that we are a team, everybody contributes. And without everybody doing their part, there’s no way we can keep this family functioning. So, including that piece, the whole family contribution piece in your hybrid schooling model, or homeschooling model, it’s super important now and moving forward.

Katie: Yeah. I love the family contributions versus chores. We’ve made that switch in our house. And I will say the Positive Parenting course is one of the few that I’ve ever made it through, like, the entire way because it’s so easy to get through and so practical. And I was taking notes the whole way. But I think also a shift that we’ve seen…and we’ve talked about this a little bit in our first episode, but I wanna go a little bit deeper in relation to the school aspect here is that moms today seem to feel a lot more responsibility for handling everything in the home and for entertaining their children than previous generations of moms seem to have. Like, I know from the conversations I remember with my grandmother, like, it would have been a foreign concept to her that she was responsible for scheduling every hour of her kids day and making sure that they were always entertained and happy because, to her, play was the work of children and children should play. And if they needed something, she was, of course, there but she wasn’t going to be their source of entertainment for the whole day.

And it seems like moms have taken on a lot more in the last couple of generations. And we talked about this in our first episode, which I encourage you guys to listen to. But this has also bled over into the school aspect a lot. So now with kids home, some kids home all of the time, I think some moms are feeling an increased pressure and guilt that they should be entertaining their kids or always focused on their kids. So let’s recap a little bit how you talked about in the first episode of the importance of, of course, quality time with our kids, but what that actually looks like and why it doesn’t need to be 10 hours a day uninterrupted.

Amy: Yes, absolutely. So, let’s talk about, you know, kind of, what kids need from us, right? They need emotional connection. They need attention from us. They need love and nurturing and all of those things. But to your point, we cannot be their entertainment all day long because if we are their entertainment all day long, they are not becoming independent and entertaining themselves. And I think what’s happening right now, Katie, you’re absolutely right, parents feel guilty because their kids are bored, right? They don’t have as many extracurricular activities like we did before. And kids are bored. And so, either mom or dad turns to being the source of entertainment and playing with them all day or what’s happening more commonly is kids are on technology so much more than they were previously because they think, “Well, the kids are bored, what else are they gonna do? They need to play their games or, you know, playing the tablet or whatever.” And, you know, that creates a whole host of problems, which we can talk about separately.

But let’s get back to that time that we spend with our kids. So they do need our time and attention. But as you said, it doesn’t have to be 10 hours a day. The tool that we advocate for this is called Mind, Body, & Soul Time. This is something that parents in our 7-step Parenting Success System learn right out of the chute because it’s the most important tool and it’s gonna make the biggest difference in terms of your child’s behavior and the way you feel about your relationship with your child. And Mind, Body, & Soul Time is basically 10 to 15 minutes, let’s just say 10 minutes to keep it simple, 10 minutes of one-on-one time, one parent and one child when you are fully present in mind, body, and soul and doing what the child wants to do. And so, think about it from the child’s perspective. So much of their day is parent-directed. We’re telling them what to do. In this 10 minutes, they have you 100% of themselves, no competition from siblings or from your partner or your phone or your work. You are fully focused in mind, body, and soul, and they get to pick what the activity is. So if it’s playing Legos or shooting hoops in the driveway or working on a puzzle or doing a craft, they call the shots. And it is so empowering for kids.

So, it gives them that heaping dose of attention in their attention bucket. It gives them a huge dose of power and significance because they’re getting to call the shots for a change. And I promise you that when you implement Mind, Body, & Soul Time into your routine, every single day, you will see a measurable improvement in cooperation and attitude, and it’s gonna make a huge difference in the whole schooling thing because everything isn’t a battle. When their hardwired emotional needs for attention and power are met proactively in positive ways, it makes everything else so much easier. So, to your point, Katie, we don’t have to be the entertainment managers, making sure they’re happy and busy and entertained all day long, we just need to give them those focused intentional doses of Mind, Body, & Soul Time, once or twice throughout the day, and it will make a world of difference.

Katie: It really does. And I’ll encourage anybody if you haven’t tried that, it really is profound how quickly you notice a difference in your kids. And it also, I think is very…It helps a lot of moms work through that mom guilt aspect because you see those tangible results. You see your kids feeling happier, and feeling content, and feeling secure in their home environment. So you don’t feel as much of a need to be their entertainment because you know that they’re getting their needs met. And I think, like, that’s another thing that just it’s so helpful to keep top of mind. And I know that’s the first thing that you guys teach. I also think…we talked a lot about the early years in our first podcast. I’d love to talk about since it’s top of mind for me also a little bit about the teenage years right now, as I’ve got a couple of teenagers now. And I feel like I’ve done a lot of the things in your course as far as making sure that, like, they have regular family contributions. They are getting their schoolwork done on their own. We have a really great relationship.

But of course, this is also a time psychologically when they are transitioning to friends being important and to those social connections being really important. And certainly, that’s hard for a lot of families right now, depending on the limitations in different areas. But do you have any specifics for parents in navigating when kids get to the teenage years and with that long-term goal in mind of kids, I shouldn’t be calling them kids, but letting them be, you know, independent adults, that handoff of power and how much independence when and how to navigate that?

Amy: Yes, and it’s so traumatic for parents. You know, my kids are a little bit older. They’re a couple of years out of college now. But I just remember so clearly how traumatic that is. You just wanna hold them tight and micromanage but you know that’s not in their best interest. And so I always like to think about, you know, whatever age your kids are right now, how many more years do you have until they are finished with high school? That’s, kind of, the delineation point. And then after high school, something is gonna happen. Maybe they’re gonna go to college and maybe they’re gonna go into the military or start at an adult job. But basically, at that point, they need to be fully functioning adults in all aspects of life. So, financial matters, taking care of the home, you know, self-care, like, taking care of a vehicle, like, all of those things that we have to do as adults, they need to learn how to do. And so, it helps you, sort of, map out, okay, if I have a freshman right now, what do I need to be doing over the next four years to get this child to be completely independent so at the end of high school, he could function as an adult on his own if he needs to? So, I like to, sort of, step back and take a look at that big picture.

Now, at the same time, as you said, they want their friends more. They want more independence. And that’s supposed to happen. It’s hard for us, but we know it’s supposed to happen. And so we have to really, sort of, take a leap of faith that we have done the right things and we can loosen up those reins. But one of the tools that I love for that is a tool called Convince Me. And Convince Me is great for kids, younger kids too, but especially for teenagers when they want you to loosen up the ropes a bit. And let’s say they want to, you know, go to another town to see a concert, and again, this is assuming when everybody can travel safely and gather in groups and things like that. But they wanna do something that’s outside, take the car out. They wanna do something outside the comfort zone that you have. You use the tool of Convince Me, which is basically they convince you that they are prepared to do this.

And so, you explain to them your concerns, your reservations about this thing, taking the car to go to the outlet mall. “These are the concerns that I have. But you tell me your plan for how you’re gonna execute on that.” And so, it requires them to think about the things that you’re concerned about and then come up with a plan that addresses your concerns, and then what their backup plan would be if something goes wrong. And so, basically, they convince you or not. And so, if they convince you, and you say, “Okay. I feel like you’ve really thought that through. I think you’d have a good contingency plan in place. I feel comfortable with that. You know, have a great time.” And then they drive the car to the outlet mall and everything goes beautifully. Well, they’ve earned some trust. They’ve earned some goodwill, and you know that they are moving along that continuum from dependence to independence. If it doesn’t go well, then, of course, you regroup and you do problem-solving and that type of thing. So that is one tool that I love for teenagers.

The other thing that I think we have to think about is, you know, our role is very different. Our role is, you know, being the sounding board, sort of coaching them a bit, helping them solve problems, but we really have to get out of that micromanager, kind of, role that we did when they were younger. Otherwise, we are gonna have a world of power struggles that are gonna be really hard to get out of. The other thing with teenagers is the Mind, Body, & Soul Time thing still applies. It looks different but they still need and want that emotional connection time with you. So, you can do Mind, Body, & Soul Time with a teenager but maybe it’s, you know, watching a Netflix series that you both are really into or, you know, reading a chapter book and, you know, you read to your teenager. They’ll still think that’s really cool and it’s fun. But it looks different but you still wanna be doing that so that you’re maintaining those emotional connections. And that keeps the lines for communication open. And it will just make the path in those teenage years go a lot more smoothly, Katie.

Katie: Yeah, absolutely. That Convince Me one that has been a game-changer with my older kids. And I loved that from your course. And I love how it gives them that…It makes them responsible for thinking through the consequences of their action, like you said, which is what we want them to do in the first place. But there have certainly been times where my older kids, I thought something might be a little beyond their maturity level, and they were able to convince me, and then they were perfectly fine. And they were grateful that I actually listened to them and that they felt seen and heard. And then they took that responsibility very seriously because they knew that they had earned it. And I think it makes them actually more likely to follow through and really highlights all those traits we want them to have through the process and respects that natural phase, like you said, of them becoming more independent. And as hard as that might be for us as moms, it’s so important for them at those ages and I think really important for our relationship with them as they get older. I don’t have any in college yet. But do how’s your relationship, if you don’t mind sharing, with your kids now that they’re grown?

Amy: It’s so wonderful. And I think I might have shared this with you before. I remember when I first started out in my whole, kind of, parenting journey, I had so many power struggles and so much difficulty. And I used to, like, look ahead and think, “Oh my goodness, what is my life gonna be like when my kids are teenagers if I, kind of, continue down this path of, you know, ordering, correcting, and directing, and being the yelling mom and, kind of, the way I was early on? But I’m so thankful that I learned these tools. And we had a great relationship through all of their teenage years. But I think it’s because of just what you said. You know, we were doing the Mind, Body & Soul Time. We had the open communication. I tried to listen more than I talked. And that’s really hard for me because I’m very much a controller type A personality. And so, really, you know, being intentional about listening more and problem-solving more, and now our relationship is great.

I think the one thing that parents really, kind of, freak out about in the teenage years is just, kind of, the attitude stuff, the snarkiness, the backtalk. So I just like to share a couple of nuggets on that for our listeners.

First, you know, recognize that it’s normal and you are the safe place. So, for all the other stress in their life, you are the safe place and the outlet where they can just, you know, let all the ugly stuff out but it still hurts. But a couple of things that I always like for parents of teenagers to think about when you start to get that attitude stuff is, first and foremost, we always look first at our Mind, Body, & Soul Time. Are we giving that intentional connection time? If not, I promise you, you’re going to have more attitude. You’re gonna have less cooperation and everything is gonna feel more difficult. So getting that back on track if it hasn’t been consistent is the first and most important thing.

The other thing that I like for you to think about is how much technology time they’re getting. For kids of all age, I find that the more technology time they have, the worse their attitude becomes. It’s like technology sucks them into this black hole that just seems to make everything more difficult in terms of their attitude and their demeanor. So, I always look at that. And then I also like to look at our attitude and our energy around our kids. So, how is it for them to be around us? Are we the type A controlling mom constantly ordering, directing, and correcting, or is our energy light, and easy, and fun? Not that you have to be the playground mom all the time or the entertainment director, as we talked about before, but are you light and easy to be with or are you all about bossing about the chores, or family contributions, excuse me, bossing about that, or the schoolwork or, you know, what they didn’t remember to do? We really just, kind of, have to take a look at our communication style, and our attitude, and our energy to assess whether that’s affecting the relationship with our kids.

Katie: I’m glad you brought it back to technology as well because I think…I know we touched on this briefly but that’s definitely a tougher thing to navigate right now, especially when school is on technology almost exclusively for so many families. So, any specifics for how to navigate technology time, especially as school is more and more virtual right now?

Amy: Yes. So, the first thing we wanna do is delineate school technology time versus recreational technology time. We can’t do much about the school time, right? They have to show up for classes and they have assignments that they have to do online, and we can’t really do much about that. But where we can have some influence is on the recreational time. So, for younger kids, and I know it’s hard right now because we’re all home, and there aren’t as many activities to do but really scale that back and have it be specific times of the day and for a certain amount of time. So I wanna talk about younger kids and older kids. So, for, you know, the younger kids, maybe it’s 30 minutes in the morning and 30 minutes in the afternoon, which still feels like a lot of technology time. But, again, we know parents are giving more tech time anyway. Let’s just have it be productive.

So, our technology time always needs to be part of a when-then routine. I know we’ve talked about this, Katie, but just to remind our listeners, a when-then routine requires the yucky stuff be done before the more fun stuff. So, your when-then routine every single day, whether you are homeschooling, virtual, or your kids are going out to school, when your bedroom is cleaned up, your schoolwork is done, your homework is completed and I’ve checked it, if that makes sense in your family, then you can have your technology time. When your family contributions are done, then you can have your 30 minutes of technology time up until 2:00. So, you know, if they dilly-dally all day, you wanna have an end time on there. But technology always, always, always happens at the end of a when-then routine. So they’ve completed the not-so-fun stuff and then they can enjoy the more fun parts of their day.

Now, to your point earlier about teenagers, you know, they’re more social now. And their primary way of connecting with their friends is online. And so, I think we have to be…you know, we have to understand that. And I think that’s where sitting down and having a conversation with them and really doing the problem-solving is important. And you can just say, “You know, I know that connecting with your friends right now is challenging. I know that technology is the best way to do that. I want you to be able to connect with them but let’s sit down and work out a technology plan that we both feel good about. I know if you had your druthers, you’d be on all day long. If I had my druthers, it would be, you know, 30 minutes a day. But let’s talk about that and figure out a plan that we both feel good about.” And working with them rather than just, kind of, laying down the law, I think is gonna be a more productive solution.

Now, you’ll still have your family rules in place. Like, I’m hoping that, you know, we have a technology curfew time that all the devices go off at 10:00 pm, or whatever that is, depending on the age of your kids. We charge devices in the public space. We don’t charge them in bedrooms. That’s a big no-no. And, you know, we have rules like no devices at the table and things like that. So you’re gonna have your family rules that they have to live within but within that context, then we can still have that problem-solving, you know, conversation to come to an agreement that everybody feels good about.

Katie: Yeah. And to add on to that, just a tip about having that technology curfew, one thing we’ve done in our house because there’s also some potential research about the risk of EMFs especially at night and it being more impactful for the body to be exposed to a lot of Wi-Fi and cell phone signals while you’re sleeping and your body’s in a more restful state. So to solve both of those problems, we put a digital timer on the power strip that has our router, and our modem, and all of our technology. So our internet goes entirely down at 10:00 at night. So that also keeps us as adults accountable for turning our devices off because we just simply lose the internet and then we put our phones in airplane mode while we’re sleeping, and that way, it’s an easy way to make sure that that curfew actually happens. Because I found it’s also, even if you have a curfew, it’s easy to let it kind of creep up if kids are still working on stuff or if I’m still on social media or whatever it may be. So I’ll put a link to my post about that. But you can do it with a $9 digital timer and then you don’t have to remember to enforce that curfew at all.

Amy: That is so brilliant. And if I can just expand on that for a second. That is a perfect example of a tool we call Control the Environment. I know you know this, Katie, it’s from step 3. But when we control the environment, we set up systems or routines, so that, basically the environment becomes the boss. So, in Katie’s example, the digital timer is the boss, right? You don’t have to say, “Okay, everybody off your devices.” You don’t have to be the reminder and chief. You let the system take care of it. Or maybe it’s some other device controls that you’ve used. But that’s an example of controlling the environment. Another example, this doesn’t have to do with schooling but, you know, if you don’t want your kids to, you know, have sugary snacks, obviously, you control the environment by not having them in the house.

So, anytime we can control the environment, rather than controlling the child, it makes things so much easier and then the parents don’t get into that whole power struggle situation. Oh, one other quick thing, a lot of parents will say, “Well, my kids need their phone in the room for their alarm clock so they know when to get up for school.” Well, you can go to Target and get an old-school alarm clock, your kids don’t have to use their phone device as an alarm clock. And instead, you charge all of those in the central charging station. And then that’s, you know, out of sight, out of mind for everybody.

Katie: Yeah, I love that on the environment. And I think that extends to so many areas of parenting and household life, certainly, technology is a great example. But we do that as well with just, especially in the winter, with kids inside more, realizing they feel happier when they get to move around a lot. And I feel happier when they and I get to move around a lot. We did things like put a gymnastics mat down our hallway, which not the normal decoration, but it keeps everybody…we cartwheel down the hallway. So we’ve put that in their environment and now they move all day long or we put rock climbing holds across one of the doorways at the top. So they climb the doorframe and hang, and they have gymnastics rings in their room. I’m a big proponent of kids are happier when they’re moving. And so as much as we can put those things in their way and their environment, it just gives them opportunities to do that. And then we’re not, like, having to always tell them, “Don’t jump on the table. Don’t climb the wall. Don’t do that.” It gives them opportunities and natural outlets for that even when it’s cold and rainy outside.

Amy: Absolutely. I love that. And it’s the whole, you know, you don’t wanna be telling them what not to do all the time. If we can give them opportunities to have that need met in some safe and productive way, that’s a win for everybody.

Katie: Exactly.

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So, I know that you have specific resources related to this. And I’ll, of course, link to all of your resources in the show notes. Your Positive Parenting course I mentioned, I love it. I think it’s a valuable tool for any family. And I know that you also have something specific to helping navigate, kind of, the unpredictable school year right now. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Amy: Yes. So our 7-Step Parenting Success System is our, kind of, flagship program that has all of the tools in our toolbox. And that program has lifetime access and, you know, addresses issues from toddlers all the way up to teens. We also have a program, which is just designed for this new school situation. It’s called The Ultimate Success Plan for an Unpredictable School Year. So whether you are homeschooling, you’re hybrid, or your kids go to school, physically go to school, but you know that can change at any time based on what’s happening right now, this just gives you a very step by step plan with all of the tools for the whole school situation that we find ourselves in. And then we also have our free class that we always offer, which is Get Kids to Listen Without Nagging, Reminding, or Yelling.

Katie: I’ll make sure both of those are linked as well. But I thought this was gonna be, you know, really important thing to tackle right now since so many families are still navigating this and I’m still somewhat surprised that we’re there are so many people still navigating this. I think none of us really were prepared for just how long this might go on. And still, in some areas, it looks like it could keep going for quite a while. So I love that you have created this to give families a tangible tool to help navigate it. Certainly, there is just increased stress that comes with times like this but I think it’s also a wonderful opportunity if we are doing things like focusing on that one-on-one time with our kids and not trying to manage everything and take responsibility for everything.

This can be a great opportunity as a time with our kids more at home to really form that relationship, and build that relationship, and spend meaningful time with them because I read a blog post one time about how we spend 97% of the amount of time we ever spend with our kids by the time they leave home. And I always just, kind of, think of that top of mind certainly on days when it gets stressful. You know, the days are long but the years are short and it goes so fast. So I love that you are making it easier for so many families. Really appreciative of the work that you do. And like I said, I’ll make sure everything is linked in the show notes. But, Amy, as always, it’s a pleasure. And I appreciate your time so much.

Amy: Well, thank you, Katie, so much for having me. It’s always a pleasure to chat with you. And I love what you said about that 97% of the time, like, that just like hit me in my heart now that I have grown up kids that just, sort of, hit me in the heart. So thanks for reminding all of us about that.

Katie: Thank you, guys, as always, for listening for sharing your valuable resources, your time, and your energy with us today. We’re so grateful that you did and that you were here, and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the “Wellness Mama” podcast.

If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.

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